can u tell me who invaded greece .german or italian.2nd question is do u think helping italians in africa costed hitler a defeat. and if italy would not have sided germany could this be better for hitler as italy didnot do any thing vital in war and only divided the supplies of germany in various battles which should have been given to german armies

Hello hassan [img]smile.gif[/img]
The Italians invaded Greece first but the Greek forces held them, and with the British sending troops to help the Greeks, Hitler was forced to invade in order to safe-guard his southern flank for the coming invasion of Russia.

Did the Italians cost Hitler the war?
The answer to this is no, the Germans lost the war in the East against the Russians, N Africa and the Med were just minor side-shows for the Germans, it may have hastened the end for Germany, but the death blow was on the Eastern front

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if in doubt....Panic!!!!

Hassan,

another HUGE question. I guess one would have to make an essay to have this subject´s surface even touched...

Anyway, I´d just like to add that probably Hitler had not much alternative. He just was not expecting that the Germans would have to do the fighting by themselves in the end. And after all, the Italians were in WW1 doing quite well or am I totally wrong? ( Against Germans...??)

Hitler did need allies and Italy was fascist. Maybe Hitler should have dumped them but then again there would have been a huge area south of Germany that needed defending. As well I think Hitler seemed to have been in some sort of debt to Mussolini...Maybe somebody has the answer to that.

It seems that Hitler had the nations fighting with him that were not in the category the British did: US, Australia, New Zealand etc etc.

Well, Hitler did have Finland but there was only 3.5 million of us at the time...( of course I had to say that...)

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Italy invaded Greece from Albania in autumn 1940 but the Greek Army not only held them, but counterattacked and by spring 1941 they had conquested half of Albania! Italy's defeat and British presence in Greece, along with Yugoslavia's political hesitation put in risk the whole southern flank of 'Barbarossa', so Hitler dispatched his troops and conquested both countries in two months.

Italy did cause many big problems to Germany, making them diverting valuable resources to the Mediterranean theatre, but as Redcoat said, Germany's fate was entirely decided in the East.

No, Kai. The Italian Army in WWI was just a bit less incompetent than in WWII. It fought 'well' against Austria-Hungary in the Alps, but the reason is that the Austro-Hungarian Army was too, very incompetent...

Actually, since Italy declared war on Austria-Hungary in 1915 there were 11th battles at Isonzo river in which any side ever achieved anything! The Italians attacked and were repelled. The Austrians counterattacked and were repelled... They only lost a lot of men in an static war as Verdun or the Somme... (although the men killed were not even close from those huge battles).

It was only until the 12th battle of the Isonzo river in October 1917 when Otto von Below's XIV German Army (taken from the unexistent Russian Front) attacked at Caporetto that the Italian lines were desintegrated and a tremendous blow was suffered by the Italians. There, as you should know, Kai, your dear Erwin Rommel alone captured 9.000 Italians and won his PLM... It was until the Germans withdrew all their forces for the 'Ludendorff's offensive' in spring 1918 that the Italians could take a breathe and defend themselves. Then, the Germans were held in the West and the Allies send troops and equipment to Italy and launched altogether a big offensive at Vittorio Venetto, smashing the Austrians and kiking them out of the war...

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"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun

Thanx for the Info, Friedrich!

Never have been into WW1 too much for some reason ( except the Black adder tv shows...)



The most hilarious part of the show ( ever ) I think was when they showed a piece of grass, and someone said that on that day they had conquered some ground and the piece was 1:1 for that...

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I like Rowan atkinson, but I have never watched that show, so I don't know what you're talking about...

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"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun

I rate BlackAdder's WW1 series among the best I have ever seen on the subject...

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"Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true!" - Homer Simpson

Definitely the best "black adder" series so when you got time check it out, Friedrich!

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It seems very nice, I love British humour actually. (Except for Martin Bull's...) [img]tongue.gif[/img] I have the time, but nowhere to get it from...

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"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun

Hmm….a lot, lot left out

May 24th, 1915, Italy declares war on Germany and Austria.

Italy was wholly unprepared for war on this scale, both in terms of a trained standing army, the equipment needed (particularly munitions and heavy artillery), and, the funding of a war. When the Minister of War asked for 24 millions to spend on the armed forces, the Treasury only gave him 8 million. General Cadorna (senior – his son was the Cadorna of W.W.II fame), reorganise Italian forces and launched a successful attack along the Italian-Austrian border in late summer. The lack of artillery proved telling and costly. Guns were stripped from implacements all over Italy and anything the Navy had that could be moved on wheels was commandeered. Guns and munitions were also bought from Britain where this inadequate supply was further reduced after the German submarine campaign against British shipping. With the collapse of Russia, the Central Powers had more forces to commit to the Italian front. Cadorna took 3 months to mass troops for a major offensive on the Bainsizza Plateau, troops and guns coming from the existing front in general, thereby reducing strengths there. On August 18th, 1917 the offensive was successfully mounted and Italian forces took half the plateau until obliged to halt as their heavy guns could not be moved up fast enough in support. The position was consolidated and defensively was very strong.

Caporetto - Germany moved forces to the front and hit upon a plan which worked extremely well. Old style mass frontal attack was fairly pointless. The attack was concentrated on an area of below average strength and mounted during foul weather with heavy fog and mist reducing visibility to a matter of feet. Among the pre-cursor bombardment the Germans used gas, against which the Italians had no experience and moreover no masks. The Germans also used their new Storm Troop formations with poured through the initial penetration then opened like an umbrella once through and attacked the Italian defences from the rear. One other factor was the low moral of the troops due to the practices employed by Cadorna Snr. In British trenches on the western front, troops remained in the trenches for years. However, they were not constantly at their posts. Every few weeks or so troops were relieved from the immediate front to rest areas or towns to have a break, take proper washes, get proper sleep, go for a drink, find some female company etc. Cadorna entrenched his troops in the line and left them there. This was not the case for most officers. At that time Italy still clung to the old concept of the gentleman officer who could buy his commission according to his means and family standing. Some were taken with idea of being an officer rather than being a commanding soldier. This was by no means exclusive to Italy, but they remained prime practitioners with some persistence into W.W.II.

The Italian soldiers found themselves attacked from front and behind amid gas which was indistinguishable from the general fog, mist and smoke. Forces as best possible withdrew 20 miles back to the Tagliamento river where they reorganised a defensive line. No sooner was this achieved than the troops encountered some 400’000 unarmed civilians fleeing through their positions in front of the advancing German-Austria army. Disruption of defences made them untenable, so the Italians fell back further to the river Piave, only a few miles north of Venice and in Italy itself.

The Battle of the Piave - Troops from France and Britain had been promised but as yet were to appear. The Italian officers made the position clear to their men. They, the remnants of the Italian Army, 29 Divisions, were all that stood between Italy and 50 Divisions of Germany and Austria. They were the last line, there was no support and no withdrawal. The battle raged for almost 3 weeks and produced the most ferocious and savage fighting of the Italian war. The superior combined numbers of Germany and Austria failed to break the Italian line which proved to be their Thrushes Anvil. The line held and (as known on other occasions in the history of warfare), the river ran red with blood.

The Italians lost 84,000 men in this action, the Austro-Hungarian-German’s 69,000. The outcome of the failed offensive was disastrous for Austro-Hungary. Desertion rose alarmingly, and Field-Marshal Conrad von Hotzendorff lost his job. The Austro-Hungarian army, never remotely up to the German standard, became severely weakened. It was unlikely to withstand a serious Allied blow - which next came in this same sector on the River Piave. 150,000 Austrian casualties in total, including 24,000 taken prisoner.

By November 25th the battle was over and exhausted Italian troops were relived by British and French forces which had now arrived. Over the winter the Italian front was relatively quite. In March 1918 German Divisions were withdrawn for their offensive on the Western Front. In April Italy sent an army of 50’000 men to fight in France. In June, pressured by Germany, the Austrians launched a second offensive against the Piave, Monte Grappa and the Tonale Pass. All were repulsed by forces under the command of Gen. Armando Diaz, who inflicted 150’000 fatalities on the Austrians before they disengaged. This turned out to be Austria’s last offensive of the war, however, this was not the last offensive for Italy. On October 24th, the Italian Army, supported by Allies under command of Diaz, engaged and broke through the entire front (35 miles) and advanced north, east and west, splitting the Austrian forces in two. In total the Italians and their Allies amassed 57 divisions, of which three were British and two were French. In addition a token American regiment was present which had significant psychological effect on both sides. The Austrians with 52 divisions, also possessed fewer guns: 6,030 compared to the Allies' 7,700, and an inferior air force.

Over half a million prisoners were taken and every piece of much needed equipment seized. Austria now lay wide open to invasion from the south and thereby invasion of southern Germany beyond. On November 4th, Austria capitulated and Germany on November 11th, ironically following Italy’s victory at Vittorio Veneto?

No.9

Well, 9, I didn't get into it very much because this is WW II forums and that is what I remembered at the moment...

And yes, the final victory of the Allies in the Italian front at Vittorio Venetto happened on November 10th 1918.

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"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun

Well, 9, I didn't get into it very much because this is WW II forums and that is what I remembered at the moment...

And yes, the final victory of the Allies in the Italian front at Vittorio Venetto happened on November 10th 1918.

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"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun

OK, OK, I heard you the first time

No.9 [img]smile.gif[/img]

Well, it was a mistake... I was not at you... Everything is OK, 9.

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"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun