why italy decided to back germany

Why don't you read about this subject and find it out instead of posting 20+ threads. Half of the questions we can't even give an answer for and there is no point posting hundreds of topics. What took others months to do by getting 100 posts youve done in about 20 minutes.

Jet

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And when he gets to heaven
To Saint Peter he will tell
One more soldier reporting sir
I have served my time in hell

Because they shared ideology, because Germany was enemy of Italy's enemies and because you better have this VERY powerful nation in YOUR side.

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"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun

Friedrich is right...

The ideologies were similar, except in the racial aspect....starting out, Mussolini did nothing to punish the Italian Jews. It was only in the 40s that he started to persecute them. Or so I'm told...please correct me if I'm wrong...(don't want to look like too much of a fool).

IL DUCE

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"Tolerance has never brought civil war; intolerance has covered the earth with carnage" Voltaire
"War is the fruit of man's depravity; it is a convulsive and violent sickness of the body politic.." Diderot

Too much? Too late! [img]tongue.gif[/img] [img]tongue.gif[/img] [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Just kidding! You are right about the Jews in Italy.

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"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun

A knife through the heart Freidrich....

Thanks.
Il DUCE

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"Tolerance has never brought civil war; intolerance has covered the earth with carnage" Voltaire
"War is the fruit of man's depravity; it is a convulsive and violent sickness of the body politic.." Diderot

Persecution of Jews in Italy?

To put things into perspective, of some 45’000 Jews in Italy, only @ 6’500 were not Jewish Italians, and, it was not until after 8 September 1943 that the Germans began the roundups and deportations of Italian Jews, which lasted until the end of the war.

No.9

However, the Italian people hid the Jews very often and showed themselves very reluctant to give them away...

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"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun

Whatever the ‘official’ regulations were imposed by the nazis or fascists, opposition to them rather than compliance was far more widespread at all levels. The biggest concentration of Jews were in and around Rome. When the civil service were ordered to check all records and issue new category identification papers to Jews, the actual number issued was only a fraction of the number expected.

Italian bureaucracy, which can be a bottomless pit if it so chooses, chose to ‘lose’ certain records and files and ‘unfortunately’ made gross errors in spelling, dates and nationality. So quite by accident , Berg’s suddenly became Bergo’s, etc.

Jewish escapees who met up with the Partisans had the same options as Allied military fugitives. They could be passed on from Brigade to Brigade until they were in safe territory, or they could stay with the Partisans. Many joined the Partisans and today continue to parade in their own right on Liberation Day each 25 April.

No.9

Great addition, No.9!

Well, it must be said that "bureacracy" at one time in human life has been of great value, if never again though!

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Indeed, and I know that happened in some other countries that were Allies with the Germans, even if many Hungarian Jews were killed, some others stayed there and were protected by the local population. But of course Italy was the hardest bone to bite for the bloody ASS.

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"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun

I know that many Italians did keep escaped Jews (or any Jew for that matter) in hiding. Although my great-grandfather was an extreme fascist, some of his friends and even his brother secretly protected them, which didn't sit well with my great-grandfather. He didn't find out about this until after the war was over, but when he did he was furious. He even told his brother that had he known, he would have turned him in. Talk about being devoted.

IL DUCE

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"Tolerance has never brought civil war; intolerance has covered the earth with carnage" Voltaire
"War is the fruit of man's depravity; it is a convulsive and violent sickness of the body politic.." Diderot

Your example not only illustrates the popular Italian sentiment towards Italian Jews, but also the division among citizens in the Civil War.

No.9

I completely agree with 9, here!

And Duce, Why did I think you were going to pick that avatar?

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"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun

well Freidrich, I think it would be kind of dumb if I had "IL DUCE" as a screen name and a picture of, let's say, Churchill! *lol*

SO yeah, [img]tongue.gif[/img]

IL DUCE

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"Tolerance has never brought civil war; intolerance has covered the earth with carnage" Voltaire
"War is the fruit of man's depravity; it is a convulsive and violent sickness of the body politic.." Diderot

Well you could always consider







No.9

Well. That fits very much more into reality!

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"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun

Indeed, they had kind of the same regime and points of view.

But also a very important point is that Mussolini wanted to have - like in the
Roman period - a great emperium in Africa.

He couldn't do it alone, so he fought along with the Germans.

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That's right Erwin.
I remember reading somewhere - I think it might have been the doctrine of Fascism in Encyclopidia Italiana 1932 that Mussolini's ultimate goal was to re-create the Roman Empire, with a few additions.
His first step towards this goal was when he attacked Corfu, which was pretty much a failure due to the threats of naval conflict made by Great Britain. Then came northern africa, which, for a brief time, was considered a "success" by Mussolini. That turned out to be a failure in the end as well.
Mussolini's goal of a new Roman Empire could never really be achieved, mainly because of his dependancy on Nazi Germany and their assistance.

IL DUCE

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"Tolerance has never brought civil war; intolerance has covered the earth with carnage" Voltaire
"War is the fruit of man's depravity; it is a convulsive and violent sickness of the body politic.." Diderot

Well, I must tell you that Mussolini DID create another Roman Empire! He wanted a Roman Empire and he had it! Though he didn't specified which one! He wanted that of Cæsar, Augustus and Virgilius but actually he had that of Glicerius and Romulus Augustus (around 450 a.D.)... He got that Roman Empire degenerated by corruption with no political, military nor cultural strenght...

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"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun

I stand corrected!

Thanks Freidrich [img]smile.gif[/img]

IL DUCE

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"Tolerance has never brought civil war; intolerance has covered the earth with carnage" Voltaire
"War is the fruit of man's depravity; it is a convulsive and violent sickness of the body politic.." Diderot

Bitte sehr, Duce!

At least, that thing about Mussolini's Roman Empire has always been my belief because it clearly fits into reality!

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"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun

HAHAHAHA.
Good one.

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Go-Flames-Go

Britain 'could have saved Italian Jews'

Julian Borger in Washington
Tuesday June 27, 2000
The Guardian

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Print/0,3858,4034066,00.html

British intelligence knew in advance about the Nazis' 1943 plan to deport Italian Jews to Auschwitz and Winston Churchill's government could have prevented their deaths, according to US documents declassified yesterday.

The British knew the day-to-day plans of the SS and German intelligence from radio intercepts deciphered by experts at the decoding centre, Bletchley Park. US historians who have studied the newly available documents said it was clear that the fate of the Jews was not a high priority for MI6 or the British government, and nothing was said.

The documents largely refer to intelligence that MI6 shared with their American counterparts in the OSS, the precursor to the CIA, and are likely to fuel the emotive debate about how much Britain, the US and their allies could have done to stop the Holocaust.

The British government approved their publication yesterday, but has declined to release British archives that would throw more light on the wartime thinking and decision-making about Europe's Jews and the Holocaust.

Timothy Naftali, an expert on intelligence history, said British intelligence knew about the plan to deport the 8,000 Jews in Rome to Auschwitz about five days before they were rounded up.

"A statement by Churchill or Roosevelt, carefully camouflaging the form of the information received, might well have led the Jews in Rome to take seriously the rumours that actually existed," Mr Naftali said. "These people could have found a way to get out. At least they should have been given a chance."

Mr Naftali said the news of the Nazi plans for Rome's Jews would certainly have been circulated in Whitehall by October 11. It would also have been passed to the Americans through Andrew Berding, an OSS liaison officer in London. But neither London nor Washington acted on the information, and the Jews were never told of what was in store for them. They were rounded up on October 16 and about 1,000 later died in Auschwitz.

"In 1943 the Jewish question was not foremost in the minds of the people who saw this material," Mr Naftali said. "It seemed to have no link to winning the war. There was a tendency among some in the British government and to a lesser extent in the US government to view information about the treatment of the Jews as exaggerated."

A vivid illustration of this lack of concern was a note sent in 1942 to a subordinate by Sir Stewart Menzies, who was then "C" - the head of MI6 - about what to do with the information about the Holocaust.

"I should be grateful if you could arrange for a dossier to be made of all police messages received to date which contain evidence on this subject and send it to me for the Foreign Office. This work need not, of course, be given high priority," the note reads.

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