Quote : 'Spitfire Mk 1 .. converted to phonograph duties'..

Is this a record ??

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"Stand by to pull me out of the seat if I get hit" - Guy Gibson

No, that's a 12" vinyl disc with a hole in the middle!!

No.9

On Me-262:

http://www.stormbirds.com/squadron/common/technical.htm

What made the Me 262 such a force to be reckoned with? The most obvious -- and relevant -- answer lies in it's blinding speed. In 1944-45, the North American P-51 Mustang was among the quickest and most agile performers in the Allied arsenal. In a clean configuration (without drop tanks), it's top speed was in the neighborhood of 440 miles per hour with "everything wide open except the toolbox."

By way of contrast, when the Me 262 joined the battle in the skies over Europe, it was capable of passing through a bomber formation at 540 mph with relative ease. This gave it a speed advantage over Allied escort fighters of between 100 and 150 miles per hour, and rendered traditional tactics ineffective.

Many U.S. bomber crews began to complain that, when they attempted to track the Me 262 from their defensive positions, the electric gun turrets could not slew fast enough to keep up with the Stormbird.

USAAF headquarters published a confidential report (#45-102) on German jet-propelled aircraft on 10 February 1945. This document gave fighter pilots sound advice on ways to survive encounter with the jet.

For example, pilots were advised to enter into a turning battle if attacked, as it was discovered that the jet was not nearly as agile or maneuverable as a conventional fighter.

The Mk-108 cannons were prone to jams, and the engines were extremely short-lived by any standard of measurement -- usually requiring replacement at least every 25 hours. It was commonplace for 262s to return from a mission and land on a single engine. Although engine replacements were easily and quickly accomplished, this put a further strain on a very limited pool of resources.

The Allies were quick to discover that the jet had an Achilles Heel, and adopted a technique known as "rat catching." The 262 required very long takeoff rolls and landing runs, during which it was defenseless. Fighters were dispatched to known 262 bases to take advantage of this, and many a Stormbird pilot was shot down within sight of the runway. The Germans attempted to counter this by assigning Me 109G and Fw 190D aircraft to provide aerial cover, but time was clearly running out for the Luftwaffe.

Although innovative production and assembly measures enabled Messerschmitt to produce nearly 1500 Stormbirds, fewer that 300 ever saw combat. Everything was in short supply ... fuel, engines, and especially qualified pilots.



http://www.oldgloryprints.com/Alpine%20Thunder.htm

At the end of WWII the leaders in the RLM ordered more so called "Mistelgespanne" attacks against large targets like bridges and ships. the Mistel 4, a composite of two Me 262, was investigated.
The Mistel 4 is a composite aircraft, consisting of a explosives filled Me 262 and a so called "Führungsflugzeug" (guidance aircraft) Me 262 A1 or A2/U2 which was mounted on top. This composite aircraft didn't make it far more then to the design stage and never became operational.

http://www.48specialmodels.com/en-seiten/e21m4.html

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Kai :

Just to make things a little clear on the protection units for the two Me 262 units that did have these high cover.

for Kommando Nowotny which later became JG 7 the highest scoring Me 262 Geschwader with over 450 kills,

Kommando Nowotny was covered by the first Fw 190D-9 gruppen in existance and that being III./JG 54, the pilots failed unterly in their duties and was withdrawn for fighter versus fighter combat.

The second and last high protection units was the mixed bag of 6 Fw 190D-9's and D-11's for The Gallnd Circus, aka JV 44. the high protection staffel was called the Würger Staffel and may have scored possibly 1 P-47. the sharp looking Dora's had red and white understripes on the underwings and fuselage for Flak identification.

E

Wow!

Thanx Erich!

Würger Staffel :

http://home.att.net/~jv44/jv44wurger.htm

"Sachsenberg was a good pilot... We felt safer when his aircraft were in the air" Adolf Galland

Their mission was simple. Take off, climb to 1500 ft. Protect the jets. Land once the jets were safely away. They were forbidden to chase Allied planes.

The JV44 Platzschutzstaffel has in recent times been referred to as the Papageien Staffel (Parrots). There is no evidence that this is based on historic fact and is lilely due to the colorfully painted aircraft. According to Walter Krupinski, this staffel did occasionally use the radio call sign "Pagagei" (much like an allied flight may be called "Red" or "Baker"). To the pilots and personnel of JV44, the unit was simply known as the Würger-Staffel, literally translated Butcher-Bird Squadron. Würger was the official name given to the Focke-Wulf 190, much like Lightning was given to the P-38.

The aircraft also had unusual markings including a personal inscription on the port fuselage side.

Lt Heinz Sachsenberg

Verkaaft's mei Gwand 'I foahr in himmel!
(Sell my clothes I'm going to heaven)
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Hptm. Waldemar Wübke

Im Auftrage der Reichsbahn
(By order of the State Railway)*
*A sarcastic comment originating when Wübke was ordered to fly Jabo missions during the Battle of Britain. The inscription was found on the sides of boxcars carrying bombs. Wübke felt bombs should be delivered by rail cars and bombers and not by fighters.
Wübke used this inscription throughout the war.
-------

Unknown

Der nächste Herr dieselbe Dame!
(The next man the same woman!)
-------

Oblt Klaus Faber

"Rein muß err" und wenn wir beide weinen!
(In he goes even though both of us will cry!)





http://www.stormbirds.com/schwalbe/wurger/wurger.htm

[ 10. March 2003, 08:48 AM: Message edited by: Kai-Petri ]

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Known numeration of the JV 44 Fw 190D's is "

red 1, red 3, red 4 and red 13. There is also another a/c confirmed that may possibly be red 2.

Red 1's motto "Sell my clothes I'm going to Heaven"

Red 3's motto "By order of the State Railway"

Red 4's, a D-11 variant / motto "The next man the same woman"

Red 13's motto, "In he goes even though both of us will cry"

All a/c had Red/white stripes alternating under the fuselage and lower wings. All a/c spinners were yellow tipped with a black/green base and black props. The model is incorrect.....

http://home.earthlink.net/~warbirdsart/

And rot 13



Hmmm...too bad with the model pic earlier. So much trouble but not quite right..

Anyway, Erich, maybe you know if these mottos were usual or did JV 44 have some special purpose for them ( sounds to me like something that once stuck to their minds more or less )?

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Kai :

Nice looking paintings but oh so WRONG !

JG 7 never had any protection of any kind at all. Where all these guys get the idea that 109's protected the Me 262's of the unit still somewhat stumps me. It is written in German texts from Freiburg but it is all propaganda of the time. yellow 20 in fact depicted in the painting comes from a crashed bird near Berlin from IV./JG 301 and the red/blue fuselage bands are actually red and yellow with a red second gruppe bar. II./JG 77 pilots and a/c were transferred over to IV./JG 301 and the IVth gruppe never changed the second gruppe bar out to a wavy side S over the rumpfbands.

The Würger staffel never flew together as a complete unit so the depiction is incorrect. They flew singularly. And many of Galland's Me 262 RK pilots never even knew they had a high protection Fw 190D staffel. This shows that these clowns were of no use and pretty much stayed close to their barracks living it up !
Klaus Faber who flew rote 13 more than once was going after some babe for sex and was enroute or coming back to base, on a fine spring day his cockpit filled with his own lust and some flowers and a bottle of wine. He ran across a P-47 jabo and a battle ensued where he is suppose to have shot the US a/c down close to Bad Reichenhall. Or at least that is what he said during several interviews with artist Jerry Crandall. Klaus and the other pilots of this strange unit have all passed away. Klaus being the last.

His caption under the left side of the cockpit seems fitting as he thought he was God's gift to women. The sayings were typical of the pilots feelings this late in the war and kind of typlifies the give up and who cares anymore attitude during the last days.

E

Many thanks, Kai and Erich.

I'd never heard of this outfit before and found these last posts very interesting !

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"Stand by to pull me out of the seat if I get hit" - Guy Gibson

another two cents notation guys. The chief JG 7 author, the book done in German first and then by Schiffer publications here in the US of A, Manfred Boehme, we have contacted and he has supported us fully in our quest for info on nf unit Kommando Welter 262's. We also quizzed him at lenght about the 109's that were suppose to be climed to have defended the approaches of the landing and taking of JG 7 jets. He just laughed and said it was all lies and that the authors and artists had not done their research......typical.
He did go onto say and this was also true of JV 44's airfields, is that JG 7 in particular was always defended by intense four barrel 2cm fla positions. Up and down the air strips, hidden in reventments and in overgrown canopied trees. Some towers were built but many times these stood as decoys to drop the unsuspecting P-51's to closer AA range.

JV 44's fla set ups were designed and commanded by a very famous Ground attack ace, Herr Roell.

Thanx again, Erich!

Very interesting! And I thought I would never be interested in aeroplane camouflage...



Anyway, I guess this thread shows again why some people are "Generals" and some just "heroes"...



And thanx for answering on the Bf 109 for not protecting the Me-262´s as that´s what I was about to ask next..

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Kai :

The so-called II./JG 7 was suppose to be equipped with the Bf 109G when it was first established for pilot training and it is thought that this gruppe was providing the high cover for I. and especially III. gruppe's Me 262's.
First off was the problem that Ist and IIIrd gruppe's Me 262's were not even at the same base as one another and II. gruppe was nowhere close either, so how could this three staffeln of 109's even protect the jets if it wasn't based close by and I mean by that within 10 miles of their airfields.
All the documents from Freiburg support that II. gruppe first had Bf 109G's but it is all pure propaganda.......thus a myriad of artistic renderings of the what if's ! Since Kommando Nowotny formed the basis for the future JG 7 the Me 262 kommando lost enough skilled pilots.....Nowotny himself to P-51's that is was readily apparent that skilled fast pilot/aircraft be availble to counter the P-51 threat. It really is a surprise to me that JG 7 did not pursue the idea further. Pilots were told upon landing or if suspect in being followed by P-51's that they would dive low and race across the fields into the flak patterns pulling the "enemy" into the flak zones.

Fabric from the center of the sofa on which Adolf Hitler and Eva Braun committed suicide, from the Fuhrerbunker, taken by Brig. Gen. Boudinot. Also shown to the left is a magazine picture showing correspondents searching the room.

http://www.museumofworldwarii.com/To...anCollapse.htm

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I read on Nowotny´s death by Galland but now I also found something on the US side:





A cripples Messerschmitt 262 jet flees for home but is caught by the P-51D of Lt. Edward R. "Buddy" Haydon. His victim: Luftwaffe 258-vicotry ace Walter Nowotny, who snap rolls to his death into the cruel fields of Germany streaming past in this stunning print.

At 12:45 P.M., November 8, 1944, 1st Lt. Edward R. Haydon, flying his P-51D "Lady Nelda" of the 357th Fighter Group, joined P-51s of the 20th Fighter Group in the chase of a crippled Me 262 towards its airfield at Achmer, Germany. The German fighter pilot dragged his pursuers into a barrage of flak put up by the airfield defenses. All 20th Fighter Group P-51s broke away to the right. Lt. Haydon broke to the left, alone, to find the Me 262 on the downwind leg for landing. As Haydon continued his turn towards firing position, the German pilot caught sight of him and reacted violently, snapping inverted, diving into the ground right under the P-51’s nose. Haydon had not fired a shot. He was awarded the victory, though it was shared with Capt. Ernest C. Fiebelkorn of the 20th Fighter Group, who had fired at Nowotny during the chase.

http://www.people.virginia.edu/~rjr/avart/waryears/

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In reality Nowotny cried out to ground control that he was hit. So some P-51 pilot must have shot him down with their .50's !

E

I knew Nowotny was in a battle first and dropped 1-2 B-17´s after which he was hit and after that the facts are no more very clear on what happened.


http://www.luftwaffe-experten.com/pi...W_Nowotny.html

"After shooting down one B-17, Nowotny was heard to say in a garbled radio transmission “ Oh my God! I’m on fire!” The next thing that happened was a Me-262 breaking through the cloud cover on fire and diving straight into the ground. Postwar Allied records have indicated that Nowotny was attacked and damaged by Lt. Robert W. Stevens (?)of the 364th Fighter Group. Nowotny’s Me-262 nosed straight down through the clouds into the ground at Epe, about one mile east of Hesepe.


http://www.acepilots.com/german/nowotny.html

A flight of B-17 bombers was reported, so the unit took off, about six jets in the first wave, then another. The Fw-190Ds were waiting on the runway cover their return of the jets. Galland was in the operations shack, monitoring the pilots' radio transmissions. Several bombers were called out as shot down, and Nowotny radioed that he was approaching. The flight leader on the ground, Hans Dortenmann, requested permission to take off to assist, but Nowotny said no, to wait. The defensive anti-aircraft battery opened fire on a few P-51 Mustangs that approached the field, but they were chased away. The jets were coming in.
One Me-262 had been shot down, and Nowotny reported an engine failure before making a garbled transmission referring to “burning”. Galland watched Nowi's approach, heard the sound of a jet engine, and saw his Me 262 A-1a (W.Nr. 110 400) “White 8” dive vertically out of the clouds and crash at Epe, 2.5 kilometres east of Hesepe. The explosions rocked the air, and only a column of black smoke rose from behind the trees. The wreckage was Nowotny's plane. After sifting through it, the only salvageable things found were his left hand and pieces of his Diamonds decoration.

http://history1900s.about.com/librar...blgalland5.htm

One Me-262 had been shot down, and Nowotny reported one of his engines was damaged. He was flying on the right engine alone, which made him vulnerable. I stepped outside to watch his approach to the field, when an enemy fighter pulled away not far from us. I heard the sound of a jet engine, and we saw this 262 coming down through the light clouds at low altitude, rolling slightly and then hitting the ground. The explosions rocked the air, and only a column of black smoke rose from behind the trees.

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http://www.jg54greenhearts.com/Now.htm

His last words heard over the radio were: "I´m burning! My god, my god! I´m burning!"

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http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/nowotny/nowotny.htm

At that very same moment Lt. RW. Stevens of the 364 FG which was patrolling the area, caught-up with a Me 262-flown by Nowotny who was returning to Hesepe. He knew the jet was approaching the field, and would shortly be in the Flak-alley. He swiftly closed in due to the Nowotny speed loss from the engine failure. When in the gun-range he opened fire. He recorded some hits on the jet, but sensing all that flak is just waiting for him to come in to range, he decide that he would be satisfied with a Me 262 - damaged. He put his trusty Mustang in a shallow dive to gain speed and he immediately went back to seek cover in those low hanging clouds. Meanwhile Major Nowotny was fighting a lost battle. His Me 262 was partly paralyzed from the engine loss, and he made one last radio transmission. Last words of Nowotny heard over the radio were: "I´m burning! My god, my god! I´m burning!". Then his fighter rolled and stalled-probably on the port side. His altitude was low, so when hitting the ground he briefly bounced back in the air losing one of the engines, and upon hitting the ground his Me 262 furiously exploded.



[ 11. March 2003, 03:08 PM: Message edited by: Kai-Petri ]

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No one knows exactly what happened. in fact no one is too sure what airfield he flew over to bring the P-51's under 20mm fire. 2 witnesses, one of them on the ground and from the Kommando plus another pilot flying with 12./JG 54 and in a Fw 190D-9 both reported that Nowotny exclaimed, I'm hit, shit my engine is burning. that was it.
Maybe one of three P-51 pilots got the claim or maybe German flak hit him......

E

Does anyone know what language that is in because I don't think its German. A friend of mine speaks the language fairly well and he cant figure it out.

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There's no honorable way to kill, no gentle way to destroy. There is nothing good in war. Except its ending.