Yeah, I know it didn´t do very well in the end but there was some strong belief in it at the beginning as well as some good scoring records for the plane:

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It was an elegant low-wing cantilever monoplane two-seater fighter of all-metal construction, with retractable landing gear, looking not unlike the Hurricane.

It was also powered by a Rolls-Royce Merlin engine. Boulton Paul had already a competitive edge, possessing an effective four-gun gun powered turret of their own design which was used in the Defiant. The first Defiant prototype flew on 11 August,1937. The first production Defiant was flown on 30 July, 1939 and deliveries to the first operational RAF unit, 264 squadron, began in December, 1939.

In October 1939, a series of trials took place between the Defiant and the Hurricanes of 111 Squadron. The results were that the Defiant certainly could not compete against the Hurricane, it could not match the performance or the maneuverability and there were many mixed feelings regarding as to whether it could compete against present enemy fighters. But the Hurricane and Spitfire was not being produced in the numbers that Fighter Command had hoped, and with the introduction of the Defiant it would at least boost up the number of fighters that could at least support the two main fighters of the RAF.

The range of the Defiant was reasonably good, more than the Spitfire but not as much as the Hurricane. Maximum speed was a bit of a problem, but its main disadvantage was that it had no forward firing power relying only on the hydraulically operated dorsal turret.


As the the weight of the gun turret detoriated performance, after the initial operational success heavy losses followed; it was then used as a night fighter for some time and later as a target tug. The total number built 1064.

The first front-line RAF Defiant squadron was also the first to be deployed into battle on 12 May, 1940 over the beaches of Dunkirk, its fighters claiming 38 enemy aircraft in one day. The squadron totalled 65 enemy aircraft shot down by the end of May, 1940.The Germans had no idea that the British had an aircraft that could fire at them from the rear. In the early days, the Defiants had much success, not only against the bombers, but against the Messerschmitt Me109 as well who were caught unawares by the gun firing turret of the Defiant. Once the Luftwaffe pilots got their measure, the glory days of the Defiant were over. The Me109 showed its superiority in speed, even the Bf110 was to outperform the Defiant which was now doomed to failure.

Following the disastrous showing of No.141 Sqn against the Bf109 on 19 July 1940 in which they lost six of nine Defiants, the Defiant was withdrawn from daylight duties and became a night fighter.

When the RAF Defiants were moved to night fighter operations, many of them carried the then-new AI airborne interception radar. In this role the Defiant again proved itself in combat, achieving more "kills" per interception that any other of the improvised night fighter aircraft of the period. ( 1940-1942 ??)

By the end of 1942, the Defiant was withdrawn completely from operational duties.

There is almost certainly no more than 4 Defiants left in the world, the only known complete example is in the RAF Museum (UK), a wreck with the Boulton Paul Association in Wolverhampton (UK) and a wreck in the Moray Firth (UK). The Boulton Paul Association also has a replica Defiant.




http://www.battleofbritain.net/section-4/page-13.html


http://www.cbrnp.com/profiles/quarter2/defiants.htm

http://www.fleetairarmarchive.net/Aircraft/Defiant.htm

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That's an interesting post, Kai.

The Defiant was a flawed concept ; an idea that really didn't work.

It's almost unbearable to read about Defiant losses in the Battle of Britain. It's particlarly horrifying to think that once the engine was hit and failed, the gunner had abolutely no chance of escape - the hydraulics failed, the turret was immobile.

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"Stand by to pull me out of the seat if I get hit" - Guy Gibson

Personally I always thought it was a nice aircraft but frankly I would rather fly a brick, probably slightly safer.

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There's no honorable way to kill, no gentle way to destroy. There is nothing good in war. Except its ending.

That was a good post KP. The painting was nice too. The British also tried the power turret on the Blackburn Roc but I do not know if it saw any combat. Also the French had a fighter built with a tail turret but I don't have my book in front of me to say what type it was called. I recall it was a flying wing type design with a 20mm cannon in a tail turret.

What a waste of resources to build 1000+ of these aircraft along with the Fairy Battle. Makes you wonder how they survived the war.

It also reminds me of the model aircraft they built for the Indinia Jones movie 'Raiders of the Lost Arc'. It too was a flying wing with a power turret but it did not look like the French plane I am thinking about.

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Work Harder ! Millions on welfare are depending on you.

Actually the Defiant was on my mind as it was one of the first models I did in my youth.

Sorta brings tears to your eyes as it looks good but in reality was a total flop.

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Hey KP,do you have a picture of the model you built to post? I would like to see it.

Also on the Finnish Air Force in WWII, did the fighter pilots have a single favorite aircraft to fly since they used so many different types, such as the V.L. Myrsky,Fokker DXXI, Buffloe,Me-109,captured Russian types,English types ect. ect.

The French plane I was thinking of was the Sud-Est S.E. 100. It did not have a turret, it just looked bizarre and had a 20mm in the extreme rear. The production version was to have 10 20mm cannon on it !!!

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Work Harder ! Millions on welfare are depending on you.

Sorry Ta 152,

the Defiant is somewhere on the attic of my parents´ summer cottage. But it is all black-a night fighter. ( the first versions were very simple for the painting work...)

On Finnish favourite planes I think it as well depends on the battle year and availability of planes-naturally. ANyway-here´s my thoughts on this according to what I read. Maybe Sami comes up and corrects what´s left to make better...

Winter war

Fokker D.XXI
1939-40 130 kills by 47 pilots,
1941-44 61 kills by 40 pilots

Continuation war

Messerschmitt Bf 109G
1943-44 663 kills by 94 pilots

Brewster Model 239
1941-44 478 kills by 83 pilots
( I do think the Finns were really overjoyed by this plane as they as well tried to make our own version of it-Humu )

http://www.danford.net/humu.htm

Curtiss Hawk 75A
1941-44 190 1/3 kills by 58 pilots

http://www.sci.fi/~ambush/faf/fighters.html#kurtissi

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Funny how you mention the Defiant and the Battle in same post.....Typical British design response to the forthcoming war...Lots of designs..Maybe wanted to confuse the enemy who they thought would see so many different planes in the air..they would have to get the old recognition charts out while flying...quite a ruse...while they were doing this..the old Spit or Hurricane then zooms in out of the sun..

No seriously, funny you mention those two...as a romantic...they are two of my favourite aircraft of ww2. Says a lot about me then...

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Prepare to repel borders.
William L. McGonagle, MOH, U. S. Navy, Commanding Officer, USS LIBERTY 1967.

You could write a whole book on aircraft that looked good on paper and in the air at the time, and then in combat got slaughtered.

My favorite British aircraft is the Westland Whirlwind. If it had the Merlin engines that they wasted on other aircraft installed on it instead of the Peregrine engine,it would have been an excellent fighter with four 20mm cannon in the nose.

Anouther overlooked British design was the Gloster F.9/37. Don't know why they did'nt build it instead of some of the other lemmons like the Blenheim.

Also the Miles M.20 looked like a winner to me but was not built.

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Work Harder ! Millions on welfare are depending on you.

Another one that looked good on paper was the ME110. It was a very fast plane at the time of it's inception but its size gave it many handicaps. Why is it that the 110 was a failure and the American P-38 was a success?

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American by birth, TEXAN by the grace of GOD!

P-38

The Lightning racked up an impressive series of "firsts" -- it was the first Lockheed-designed military aircraft to go into series production, it was the first twin-engined interceptor to serve with the USAAC, it was the first production fighter powered by the Allison V-1710 in-line engine, it was the first modern fighter equipped with a tricycle landing gear, it was the first American plane to use butt-jointed flush riveted external surfaces, it was the first to make extensive use of stainless steel, it was the first fighter to use a bubble canopy right from the start, it was the first fighter with speeds over 400 mph, it was the first US twin-boom fighter to go into production, it was the first USAAF fighter to shoot down a German aircraft, it was the first USAAF fighter to carry out an escort mission to Berlin, it was the first USAAF plane to land in Japan after that country had surrendered, it was the heaviest US single-seat fighter of World War 2, it was the only American fighter in production at the time of Pearl Harbor to be still in production at the war's end, and it shot down more Japanese planes during World War II than any other U.S. fighter.

The Pacific theater of operations produced the two highest scoring aces in American history, Major Richard I. Bong and Major Thomas B. McGuire, Jr. Both men flew P-38 Lightnings in the Southwest Pacific and each received the Medal of Honor in recognition of his courage and accomplishments.

By the end of production in 1945, 9,923 P-38s had been built.

http://home.worldonline.dk/winthrop/p38.html


Late in 1942, the P-38 went into large-scale operations during the North African campaign. The Lightning was effective against bombers and had a sensational zoom climb that could rarely be matched. It wreaked great havoc among Rommel's air transport well out to sea, earning for itself the German nickname "der Gabelschwanz Teufel" -- the Fork-Tailed Devil. The Lightning was also ideally suited for the Pacific theatre. It possessed a performance markedly superior to that of its Japanese opponents. It possessed a range significantly better than that of the P-39s, P-40s and P-47s available in 1942 in the Southwest Pacific, and its twin engines offered an additional safety factory when operating over long stretches of water and jungle. The Lightnings proved to be extremely rugged and could take a lot of battle damage and still keep flying. Missions lasting 9, 10, or even 12 hours became routine, and many wounded Lightnings were able to limp home on only one engine.

http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/research/p38bd.htm

http://p-38online.com/exp.html

By mid March 1943, the Axis had a force in excess of 500 Ju-52s, Me-323s and SM.82s dedicated to reinforcing the theater. The Allies applied the long-legged P-38 to cut this air bridge from Sicily, some measure of the intensity of this battle can be gauged by three notable sorties. On the 5th April 26 P-38s engaged a convoy of 70 Ju-52s escorted by 24 Luftwaffe fighters, destroying 11 transports and 2 fighters, for the loss of 3 P-38s. On the 10th April, 41 transports and 8 fighters were dispatched, the following day 26 Ju-52s and 5 fighters were destroyed for no loss. The Allied landings in Sicily and Italy saw further successes for the P-38 force, a notable highlight being an Allied convoy escort CAP on the 9th October, during which Lt.Col. W.L. Leverette killed 7 Ju-87 dive bombers, another of his pilots killing another 5 aircraft. It is not surprising that German pilots nicknamed the P-38 Der Gabelschwanz Teufel (the Fork-Tailed Devil).

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With a large proportion of Pacific and Med P-38 operations flown at medium to low altitudes, Lockheed and Allison had little operational experience with the aircraft at high altitude and low ambients and this was quickly revealed. The Allisons misbehaved quite consistently, 'throwing rods, swallowing valves and fouling plugs' while the intercoolers often ruptured under sustained high boost, and turbocharger regulators froze at 10 in. or 80 in. of boost, the latter often resulting in catastrophic failures. Even with the arrival of the P-38J, engines and turbochargers continued to fail. The new intercooler/oil cooler design was actually too efficient and the enlarged radiators became a new problem. Fuel too, was a source of trouble, it is believed by many knowledgeable people that the majority of fuel used in Britain was improperly blended, the anti-knock lead compounds coming out of solution (separating) in the Allison's induction system at extreme low temperatures. This could lead to detonation and rapid engine failure, especially at the higher power settings demanded for combat.

Many of the P-38's assigned to escort missions were forced to abort and return to base. Most of the aborts were related to engines coming apart in flight. The intercoolers that chilled the fuel/air mixture too much. Radiators that could lower engine temps below normal operating minimums. Oil coolers that could congeal the oil to sludge. These problems could have been fixed at the squadron level. Yet, they were not. It took the P-38J-25-LO and L model to eliminate these headaches. Add sub-standard fuel, green pilots, poor tactics and the 8th had a serious problem in the making. Having had their numbers seriously reduced by aborts, the remaining fighters were all the more hard pressed by vastly superior numbers of Luftwaffe fighters. The single inexperienced 55th FG often fought the JGs outnumbered 5:1, and the operational debut of the 20th FG in late December 1943, equipped with a mixed inventory of P-38H and P-38J-5/10-LO did not dramatically improve the situation.

There is little wonder that loss rates were relatively high and the kill to loss ratio was below that of the P-47's which could be massed by the hundreds (700 P-47's flying escort was not uncommon). The Luftwaffe quickly learned to position the bulk of their fighters just beyond the range of the Thunderbolts and repeatedly flew aggressive small unit ambushes against the handful of P-38s tied to close escort and thus denied the freedom to engage at will.

To aggravate these problems, inadequate cockpit heating resulted in severe pilot frostbite, while the Luftwaffe quickly learned about the compressibility problems in dives, with German pilots evading the P-38s by executing a split-S at high speed. The initial roll rate was not spectacular and the easily recognized planform provided the Luftwaffe with yet another advantage to play.

Poor serviceability and engine problems meant that initially 50 or less aircraft were available for such missions, including the first escorts over Berlin, and therefore the 55th and later also 20th FG usually fought the JGs outnumbered between three to one and five to one, as noted previously. The large number of engine failures deep inside enemy airspace exacerbated the problem, and the aggregate exchange rate, accidents inclusive, dropped to about 1:1.5 in favour of the Lightning by 1944. Aircrew morale dropped, moreso due to the large number of single engine landing accidents, thus further damaging the aircraft's reputation. The technical problems were not resolved until the introduction of the P-38J-25-LO, by which time the 8th had decided that the new Merlin powered P-51B/C was a better choice for the mission.

In hindsight, while the P-38H and early J variants may not have performed to expectations in the ETO, what is overlooked is that their presence alone allowed the daylight offensive to proceed at the most crucial phase of the battle, the last quarter of 1943, leading to eventual air superiority by the middle of 1944, when the P-51's reached full strength. It is safe to say that were larger numbers of the P-38 available to offset Luftwaffe numbers, and more experienced pilots made available to crew the P-38, the overall result would have looked far better.

http://home.att.net/~ww2aviation/P-38.html



Dick Bong's famous Lockheed P-38 Lightning is shown in this dramatic full-color print picking his way home through some very nasty weather. Hoping to avoid a lightning strike, he is racing for that patch of sky with which all pilots have become familiar over the years.

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Kai, good stuff again. A coule of notes though. 15th AF 82nd fighter group scored over 520 aerial victories making them the hot shot fighter group fromthe 15th flying the P-38.
The term fork tailed devil is very bogus. Not sure whom ever came up with this saying but it really stuck like glue in the Americans minds. I have never heard anything uttered from the German mouths except "Lighting, Tunderbolt, Müstang."

~E

Thanx Erich!

Fork tailed devil , maybe another post-war inventions like so many others?

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replied last night to another P-38 web-master as he has the same line presented midway on his front page. probably will get no response. I think it was first mentioned in a book back in the 1960's and the statement took off as fact.

~E

I think I saw an ad in an old National Geographic that Lockheed put out from WWII that used the fork tail devil theme. I think it came from the Lockheed PR department.

Don't you wish you could go back in time. In the mid 60's a P-38 sat abandonded at the Austin Texas airport and if I had someplace to put it I would be rich now. The plane was intact and in decent condition. I think the Confederate Air Force eventually got the plane and fixed it up and wrecked it, like they do so many others they get.

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Work Harder ! Millions on welfare are depending on you.

TA, I know what you mean, I remember my father telling me about when he was young (ooooh, waaaay back in the 60's) there was a petrol station who had a Sptifire Mk.2 that sat out side under cover, very nice condition, it was for sale for £1000. He should have bought it and stuck it in the garden. I have always wondered what happened to it in the end. The same goes for all those B17's that were dumped in the Nevada desert after WW2. Whilst on the subject, does anyone know if Sally B is flying again? She was grounded for a while (when I got the chance to walk through her) but I didn't hear if she was back up. Also, Martin, have you seen that episode of 'Time Team' where they dig up a Spitfire Mk.V in France, they keep having a flypast from one of the Duxford Spitfires and claim it is a V, I thought it was a MK.II, any thoughts on that? I was very pleased when walking behind a hanger at Duxford I was asked to help push it back into the hanger, remarkably light I thought.

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There's no honorable way to kill, no gentle way to destroy. There is nothing good in war. Except its ending.

I also liked the Defiant....



Boulton Paul Defiant Mk.I and Mk.II by Phil Hale (Classic Airframes 1/48)

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