Well, I have some curiosity to know what you guys think about the different forces within the Wehrmacht. Which branch do you think performed the better? All the branches performed very well as you know, but what is the one you think was most feared by its enemies, fought the better, contributed more to the war effort, was the one which was closest to win the war, etc. Many things you'd have to consider...

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"War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." - Jean Dutourd, French veteran of both world wars

"A mon fils: depuis que tes yeux sont fermes les miens n’ont cessé de pleurir." - Mère française, Verdun

I said der Luftwaffe, Because they kept the most dangerous threat to the Reich, the American 8th Airforce (and Bomber Command) at bay for the better part of 2 years.


It was only when the new P51 models started rollin off the lines that the luftwaffe began to really get beaten out of the skies.


CvM
(The man, that almost killed Geunther Rall)

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I picked Waffen SS, But the Kriegsmarine was my second, the SS was one of the main reasons for quick success in France-Balkans and early USSR. The Kriegsmarine was so effective though, especially in 39-41 against Canadian-mediteranian shipping.

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Go-Flames-Go

I choose the Waffen-SS and the Kriegsmarine.

The Waffen-SS because they fought very hard and brave. I especially like the U-Boats of the Kriegsmarine, because they almost stopped the supplies from America to England and so they could have won the war against England.

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I chose the Waffen SS for the same reasons as you Erwin, because they fought hard, brave and were feared by the Allied Armies.

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And when he gets to heaven
To Saint Peter he will tell
One more soldier reporting sir
I have served my time in hell

I chose the Waffen SS, but what about the Fallsturmjager's? the most effective out of the 4 choices was bound to be the SS as they were an elite troop, whereas inside the Luftwaffe it was the FJ who were an elite, the were shock and determind troops at least up until about mid 43-44. So I think that the FJ and the Waffen SS were most effective, as they had the ideologies behind them.

Regards
Phil [img]smile.gif[/img]

I went with the Kriegsmarine & the brave u-boat men.

My first choice was the Waffen SS, with the Kriegsmarine as a VERY close 2nd.

I picked the Waffen SS over the Kriegsmarine only by a hair. If you look at their combat success records--they can easily be compared with each other.

The ONLY reason I picked the Waffen SS over the Kriegsmarine was because fo statistics. Meaning--that in comparison--the Waffen SS suffered fewer casualties than did the Kriegsmarine-- especially the Uboat arm which suffered 93% casualties.

Now if we had a poll on who we thought were the bravest, I would go with the men who served in the Uboats. [img]smile.gif[/img] And this would also be by a hair between all services.

[ 04. May 2003, 04:18 PM: Message edited by: C.Evans ]

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Lost are only those, who abandon themselves) Hans-Ulrich Rudel.

Good Ole' Heer got my vote-I mean look at their consistency, and the way the struck fear into the Allies right up until Stalingrad, even after such a defeat it was easy to see they still had sharp teeth.

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"GARRY OWEN"-Traditional war-cry of the US 7th Cavalry.
"CURRAHEE"-War-cry of the US 506th PIR.
"Everybody thinks that they are going to get the chance to punch some Nazi in the face at Normandy-and those days are over, they are long gone"-Lt Chris Burnett

My choice was the Waffen SS. All branches did perform well at their peak but the Waffen SS started out with substandard equipment and accomplished the difficult if not impossible. After given the proper equipment, it exceeded all expectations. Das Heer did the same when under the optimum circumstances and when given room to maneuver but when you had to make a stand, the Waffen SS gave em hell. So, for the most effective, Waffen SS.

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American by birth, TEXAN by the grace of GOD!

The Waffen-SS.The fire fighters of German Army.

Must admit though that all branches made quite huge efforts in WW2, and of course we can just wonder how well they would have done without the idiotic orders of Hitler, Göering...

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Easy choice for me - das Heer. Consistenly high performance against all comers, both on offense/defense and against the odds. The decisive organizaztion in delivering much of Europe into German hands and coming close to winning the war in the Soviet Union and North Africa. Fought in plains, steppes, arctic, desert, forest, etc. Few poor units.

As such, the runner up would be the Luftwaffe, for sterling service supporting the Heer in the successful expansion of Germany, as well as defense of the homeland. Excellent performance even when odds were stacked up against them. The expansion of Germany would not have happened without them.

Third, the Kriegsmarine, for coming close to strangling England through submarine warfare. While sitting on their hands for much of the war this was a pretty close-run and potentially decisive action.

Fourth, Waffen-SS for fearsome reputation and tenacious fighting abilities in certain units. Comes in last for lack of impact in changing the war, or possibilities thereof. Only Kursk and Normandy could possibly have altered the course of the war, and the only "positive" result would have been to prolong the war before the inevitable end. Also factored in is the fact that the majority of formations were second or third-rate units that don't even play in the same field as a lowly regular infantry division, which is not the case with other organizations. Overall, late-comers that mostly caused concern for the enemy on the tactical level, rather than higher levels.

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"Nervous wait for the whistle to blow
Rush of blood and over we go..."
- Iron Maiden, "Paschendale"

The Waffen-SS was not part of the Wehrmacht.

Cheers,

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"Gentlemen! You can't fight in here, this is the War Room!"
(President Merkin Muffley in "Dr. Strangelove")

That will be an interesting discussion whether Waffen-ss was part or not of the Wehrmacht.



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http://www.valourandhorror.com/DB/BACK/SS_bkgd.htm

Growth of the armed SS had caused considerable friction between OKW, Oberkommando der Wehrmacht (Armed Forces High Command), and the SS. Finally, in February, 1940, an understanding had been reached between OKW and SS whereby the status of the armed SS became clear, war operations under control of the Army , and that service within these formations would be counted towards the military service obligation. Himmler agreed, and on March 2, 1940, the title of Waffen-SS became official.

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I think that later on as troops were gathered from other units ( Luftwaffe etc ) in the Waffen-SS to make the men losses good or the service in Waffen-SS was not voluntary anymore ( ca 1944 ), then what do we call that army? Maybe not Heer but maybe part of Wehrmacht if the original Waffen-SS ideaology was lost? Or?

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Well, the Wafffen-SS units were certainly never part of the Wehrmacht. While used under the operational command of the Wehrmacht in many cases, they were still part of, sorted directly and only under the SS. No more than the late-war Wehrmacht units deployed in Waffen-SS formations suddenly became SS when under their operational command (VI SS Panzer Army for example, if memeory serves).

This of course was the entire reason for the existance of the Waffen-SS, to mold a new devoted Nazi army rather than the old unreliable Prussian Wehrmacht (from Hitlers point of view). To integrate it would defeat the entire purpose, and so I suppose even lending operational command was a pretty big step.

For the sake of this discussion I think we can overlook the fact that the WSS really was part of SS, since I'm sure the good General just meant to compare the different organizations... [img]smile.gif[/img]

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"Nervous wait for the whistle to blow
Rush of blood and over we go..."
- Iron Maiden, "Paschendale"

Found an interesting quote from Finnish Captain Y.P.I. Kaila's report to HQ after returning to Finland in 1942, following service with SS Wiking.

"I noticed much bravery but almost no skill. The officer corps of Waffen-SS didn't train themselves with tactical questions! The combat and leading one's troops in battle were seen to be so simple that no special expertise would be necessary and Germanic bravery would be enough.

As I mentioned before, the war begun so soon that I didn't have opportunities to examine combat training in the unit. Therefore my opinion on training in SS forces is based on the results, actions on the front, both on battlefield and outside of it. I got very poor picture on this; poor terrain use, short-sighted bravery, actual mania in gathering in large groups, non-existent fire control, companies were led by being a champion warrior, etc. On marches one of the basic requirements of motorized troops, driving discipline, was poor and the troop accommodation was impractical and unhygienic. I noticed significant signs of non-professionalism everywhere and true expertise was either not known or arrogantly belittled.

The lack of training was compensated, though with a bloody price, by common bravery and I hold the SS-troops in high regard in this respect. The discipline was faultless. I didn't observe a single occurrence where a man would have disobeyed any order from his squad leader, not even a displeasing or a highly dangerous one. A leader, especially an officer, could maintain his authority even better than what his rank in SS-Kameradscath would have required."

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"Nervous wait for the whistle to blow
Rush of blood and over we go..."
- Iron Maiden, "Paschendale"

Thanx Heartland for that....

Anyway, one must remember that there is a different approach to military training in Germany and Finland, the Prussian doing quite a lot of marching, singing, the basic stuff. I guess the core of the Prussian army is the marching. Instead we Finns don´t like it very much. We want more of the action stuff, not marching. AS well as that report claims that Germans were poor on the tactics etc the Finns were seen by Germans as uncapable of military order, could not sing, but then again were very good at shooting. And good at war. So for the drilling practices ( the right meaning? ) the Finns were not meant.

I wonder if Kaila reported when the Finns made their last war practice before going to the front late summer 1941...according to history it went totally ****. So I would not say the Finns were very good soldiers either after the training, but we know that either you learn or you die!

I´ll try to check on the report as well from my books, I think I´ve read it a couple of times as well but there might be a bit of "we´re showing you how a great nation fights" thing and maybe it was more of a parade than war practice session...or maybe it was all true..??



[ 05. May 2003, 12:00 PM: Message edited by: Kai-Petri ]

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The Waffen SS was a Military organization All military organizations--even Forestry, postal, police, factory police, SA, RAD, administration, propaganda, etc--all fell under the title of Wehrmacht--even if they were not considered one of the main services in the Wehrmacht.

The SA was not considered Whermacht--per-se, but the SA sure did contribute many many men to the Wehrmacht--still being only members of the SA.

I've also got a book that shows pics of SA troops in combat and or combat situations--wearing SA insignia. Now--granted, I don't know if this was done this way on purpose or because it was so late in the war--that the pics in my book show, that they simply had no supplies on insignia--or the time or will to change the insignia.

[ 05. May 2003, 06:14 PM: Message edited by: C.Evans ]

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Lost are only those, who abandon themselves) Hans-Ulrich Rudel.

Well, let's see, the quote is stated to be from Jokipii's "Panttipataljoona", found it by a Google search on Usenet after remembering to read something like it. Probably worth checking.

Interestingly, the recent digging and interviewing of Swedish WSS veterans by Bosse Schön, also revealed a number of similar statements, also confirmed by official debriefings after their return. More specifically several volunteers left (both training and combat units) after becoming disgusted with the amount of Nazi indoctrination, racial theory, and so on, rather than combat training and/or fighting Bolshevism which they had signed up for.

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"Nervous wait for the whistle to blow
Rush of blood and over we go..."
- Iron Maiden, "Paschendale"

Jokipii's "Panttipataljoona" is the "bible" of the Finnish SS-men in 1941-1943.I´ve read it some three times with some awesome 700 pages if I remember right, maybe more. Tells all about the "trip" to Grozny.

I took with me today two books , the memoirs by two Waffen-SS volunteers, Sakari Lappi-Seppälä and Unto Parvilahti, and I´ll see their ideas on the training.And some other interesting points!
Soon....

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Errr...not really, as far as I know.

The Waffen SS was a sub-organization of the SS, which in turn sorted directly under the Nazi party (similar to the SA), without being involved with the Wehrmacht in any way. As such they were technically part of the Nazi party, and as such party employees rather than members of the armed forces.

In fact, the US Army had some legal wranglings upon taking their first Waffen SS prisoners due to this, since the Geneva Convention stipulates prisoners of war are captives part of the armed forces. For this reason many present-day organization are set up to transfer in times of war, I belive the US Coast Guard transfers to the Department of Defense from some other Department in times of war, for example.

Hitler made a move in this direction in '44, by moving the Waffen-SS member status from Party employees to Government employees, but they still remained outside the Wehrmachts administration and chain of command. As always, they were "lent" to Wehrmacht operational command though, which is not at all the same thing as being part of it.

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"Nervous wait for the whistle to blow
Rush of blood and over we go..."
- Iron Maiden, "Paschendale"