I agree with the statement that the movie Battle of the Bulge has made pretty much set peoples minds as the event having happened as shown in the movie no matter what the real truth is.

Also in anouther post it was asked if segregation was really that bad back then ? The answer is yes ! From my research of the training base Camp Swift in Bastrop Texas the base commander made no effort to show his dislike for blacks in the US Army and on his Army Base.

I can not agree with Peiper getting sentenced at the war crimes hearings. If he was given 10 years, then he got off with alot less than a 10 year sentence served.

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A PS to the last post. I was reading a history of Peiper at the site http://www.geocities.com/wolfram55/jjp.html and it said he was murdered by French communists and tortured by US Army MP's after the war. He was on Himmlers's staff, so I am sure he was a hard core Nazi, however he seemed to be a good person to have on your side if you are going to have a war and win!!

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Ah yes, that's Thomas Vanhasselt's website. He's a hardcore SS apologist and Peiper-worshipper. Every civilian killed in the Ardennes by the SS deserved their faith as they were all partisans, that kind of nonsense.

Do you have to be a hardcore Nazi to be on Himmlers staff, or would being a bright intelligent young officer also get you in that position?

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Also spricht der Narr: 'der Umgang mit Menschen verdirbt den Charakter, sonderlich wenn man keinen hat.'

Peiper was sentenced to death by hanging at the 1946 Malmédy trial. Two years later this sentence was reduced to life imprisonment because a US senate committee found that the methods used by the American interrogators to get confessions were questionable. In the end he was released after ten years, at Christmas Day 1956 as last of the Malmédy convicts.

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Also spricht der Narr: 'der Umgang mit Menschen verdirbt den Charakter, sonderlich wenn man keinen hat.'

Indeed,

Peiper probably wasn´t a "hardcore" nazi.Rommel was leading Hitler´s bodyguard early in the war and was not a nazi, I think, though was very much charmed by Hitler, like many at the time.
Then again being a nazi would not have been bad for the career, I think, but so far I know Peiper was not a hardcore nazi.

When asked by Himmler why he did not wear his Nazi pin he replied that he didn’t have one and wasn’t going to get one either- he would be an officer like his father

Peiper was not a member of the Nazi party ( quite unusual ), although he joined the Hitler Youth as a young boy and then, at the age of 19, applied for admission to the elite Waffen-SS in 1934.

http://www.scrapbookpages.com/Dachau...assacre04.html


On the subject of malmedy trial this is kinda funny way of condemning people...if it´s the truth?

One defendant, Marcel Boltz, was released because he was a French citizen by virtue of having been born in Alsace when it belonged to the French. When Alsace became part of the Greater German Reich after the defeat of France, Boltz was recruited into the Waffen-SS. Because he was a citizen of an Allied country, Boltz was automatically innocent and charges against him were dropped

mock trials had actually taken place, since the prosecution admitted it during the investigation after the Dachau proceeding ended

August 4, 1945, an order signed by General Dwight D. Eisenhower reduced the status of all German POWs to that of "disarmed enemy forces," which meant that they were no longer protected under the rules of the Geneva Conventi

Patton's Army was accused of several incidents in which German prisoners of war were shot, which he admitted in his autobiography. Patton wrote the following entry in his diary on 4 January 1945: "The Eleventh Armored is very green and took unnecessary losses to no effect. There were also some unfortunate incidents in the shooting of prisoners. I hope we can conceal this."
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I read the book Alamein as previously mentioned. In one part of the fighting the allied were ordered not to take prisoners. Mostly Italian, but poor bastards were kille din their trenches with hand granades...No chance to surrender.

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an American captain was acquitted on the grounds that he had been following the orders of General Patton, who had discouraged American troops from taking prisoners during the landing of the US Seventh Army in Sicily.
I wonder who was that?

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Ironically, an incident in which Americans executed German prisoners happened within half a mile of the Dachau courtroom. On April 29, 1945, the day that the SS surrendered the camp at Dachau, American soldiers of the 45th Thunderbird Division of the US Seventh Army lined up surrendered Waffen-SS soldiers against a wall and machine-gunned them down in the SS Training Camp, next to the concentration camp. This was followed by a second incident, on the same day, which happened at a spot that was within sight of the courtroom: the killing of SS guards at the Dachau concentration camp after they came down from their guard tower and surrendered with their hands in the air.

A third execution of German soldiers who had surrendered on April 29th, known as the Webling Incident happened in the village of Webling on the outskirts of of the town of Dachau. American soldiers of the 222nd Regiment of the 42nd Rainbow Division executed soldiers of the German Home Guard after they had surrendered. The Home Guard consisted of young boys and old men who were forced into service in the last desperate days of the war to defend their cities and towns. After an investigation by the US Army resulted in the court martial of the soldiers involved in these killings, General George S. Patton tore up the papers and tossed them in the wastebasket. Col. Howard A. Buechner, the American medical officer who was there when Waffen-SS soldiers were executed during the liberation of Dachau, wrote in his book The Hour of the Avenger, regarding the court martial of soldiers in the 45th Thunderbird Division:

"Public outrage would certainly have opposed the prosecution of American heroes for eliminating a group of sadists who so richly deserved to die."

According to World War II historian, Stephan E. Ambrose, the author of the best-selling book, "Citizen Soldiers," General Maxwell Taylor instructed the men of the 101st Airborne Division to take no prisoners during the Normandy invasion, which they participated in after parachuting into France.


After the war, the Germans attempted to bring a list of 369 murder cases, involving US Army soldiers killing German POWs and wounded men, before a German court, but the cases were thrown out.
The name list:

http://www.scrapbookpages.com/Dachau...deredPOWs.html

http://www.scrapbookpages.com/Dachau...assacre03.html

So who is innocent on those POW killings in the end? I think neither.

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Didnt want to get involved in this one...Seems we should be careful here not to get into the revisionist, Irving type league.

I accept my view of the Malmedy killings was one I have accepted for years on the back of published articles etc in the mainstream, have had my eyes opened and thanks to the guys here for some alternative views....But sorry, we cannot compare killing soldiers in cold blood if that was indeed the case at Malmedy and the killing of guard tower troops at Dachau by the relieving Americans...Sorry I think quite clearly I would probably have done the same thing on tntering the camps if they were crazy enough to be still in the camps.

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Prepare to repel borders.
William L. McGonagle, MOH, U. S. Navy, Commanding Officer, USS LIBERTY 1967.

The Malmedy incident is talked over quite thoroughly elsewhere. I don´t think we need to visit this subject any deeper.

Agreed on the killing of the SS guards thing. But hopefully you noticed, Urgh, that there was more than that.Home guard is no SS, to start with.



[ 04. January 2003, 01:24 PM: Message edited by: Kai-Petri ]

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Yep, agree, I think the victorious allies cannot play the holier than thou card, certainly they too will have committed atrocities. There are many occasions whereby allied troops went into battle with the idea of forget taking prisoners etc...And as stated in other threads and one I agree with....Winners dont get put on trial for war crimes..

Certainly on Malmedey I for one am persuaded it was not as simple as I led myself to believe before...

One massacre that always has stuck with me was with the British Warwicks that were killed on the retreat to Dunkirk...But even at that ealry part of the war I remember reading Brit troops personal accounts and they gave the impression too that taking prisoners was not the biggest thing on their mind once blood lust had risen...

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Prepare to repel borders.
William L. McGonagle, MOH, U. S. Navy, Commanding Officer, USS LIBERTY 1967.

I never heard about the British Warwicks or have anything about it in my books. Could you start a thread and educate us ?

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Work Harder ! Millions on welfare are depending on you.

Sorry Urgh, but shooting prisoners is a crime. Wether they be suspected SS concentration camp guards or US troops.

This is one of my pet hates. Its bad enough that Russia was allowed to take part in any trials, but that no Allied soldier was ever punhised is sickerning. And there are many accounts as well as the ones mention. Capt Walker, hailed as a hero and killer of U-Boats, was also a war criminal, and i find it offensive that his name should be mentioned alongside those of brave soldiers awarded the VC.

If you want to start useing excuses for Allied war crimes, these can all be equally applied to German war crimes.

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'England confides that every man will do his duty' Nelson
'I'm a Norfolk man, and glory in being so' Nelson

Proud to be a GRUNT

Hi Timo--Bish.

Timo--I agree with you and it looks to me that Fleps story was "embellished" if not totally made up. The book im currently reading puts Fleps only 60 yards away from the POWS. AT that range--one would have to be an expert pistol shot to get any "good hits."

Also--yep--unfortunatelky back in ww2--black American Soldiers did not get the praise they deserved. Take Steward 3C Dorie "Doris" Miller for example. Doris Miller was the black sailor who during the Pearl Harbor attack--manned a Machinegun on his ship after the MG crew had been killed or wounded. Miller shotdown at least one if not more japanese planes attacking his ship.

For his bravery there--he was awarded the Navy Cross--when I think he should have been awarded the Medal of Honor. He was later killed in action I think near the Solomon Islands in 1943. Because of racial prejudice at that time--there was no chance at all--that he BECAUSE of not being white or hispanic--he would not be recieving our highest award--unfortunately.

Bish made a posting above this one talking about an all African-American fighter squadron who flew P-51 Mustang fighters with red tails painted on their planes. He is correct--and these are the famed: Tuskeegee Airmen. A very interesting fact is that when these men flew as protection to our bombers--they NEVER lost a bomber to enemy fighter craft action. I think thta is absolutely amazing and fantastic. No other squadron had susc a record--or that I know of.

Hi Bish--your correct, Peiper was tried at Dachau along with some 74 others. Trial started on May 16 1946 before a US Military Court at Dachau. (The court is now looked at at a joke)

43 Waffen SS men were sentences to death.
22 were sentenced to life.
2 were sentenced to 20 years imprisonment.
5 were sentenced to 10 years imprisonment.
1 was sent to France to stand trial there for crimes committed there.

Of the total tried--only 30 of this group were tried for the killings at Baugnez Crossroads. Peiper was sentenced to death and incarcerated at Landsberg Prison, Landsberg am Lech, Bavaria.

None of the death sentences were ever carried out and all convicted men were paroled in the earlu 1950's. Peiper was released from prison just before Christmas in December 1956---the last of his Kampfgruppe to be released.

On July 14, 1976, Peipers remains were found in the burned out rubble of his house near Traves, France. The victim of some French group. I fully agree with you and Timo.

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Lost are only those, who abandon themselves) Hans-Ulrich Rudel.

Thanks Carl. I could not remember all the details of Peiper without my books. But i do recall that on the road leading to his home where he was killed, the letters SS were painted in white.

I recall what you said about the black fighter pilots from the article i read, truly amazing

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'England confides that every man will do his duty' Nelson
'I'm a Norfolk man, and glory in being so' Nelson

Proud to be a GRUNT

Bish it certainly is a crime and I never said it was not. What I said is that the yanks that shot the concentration camp guards did no more than I would probably have done on entering that camp, that would have made me a war crinimal, I never said it wouldnt.

I also stick by my assertion that the allies were as guilty of such crimes as the enemy.

That does not make it right, prisoners should not be shot, simple as that, but if I had entered Dachau and seen it first hand and camp guards were around, Im afraid I would probably do the same...If I could walk a mile in those yanks shoes...

Life is not black and white as Im sure you'll agree, and on reading some of the threads here, I came across one on partisans and was shocked to see the responses regarding an incident where we were asked to put ourselves in the shoes of a German unit and 3 individuals in particular who were told to shoot the inhabitants of a village in Russia ostensioubly becuause of partisan activity??? Id have to go searching again to find it, but a lot of respondants defended the guy who did the deed men women and children... Didnt push that thread back up again, just dont agree with killing prisoners at all...Out of order, and it may seem contradctory, I know it does, but Im afraid if I had come across german guards in Dachau after walking through the gates and being confronted with whatever they were confronted with, I cannot truthfully, hand on heart say as a human being forget soldier, forget queens regulations, that I would have reacted differently.
Thats not an excuse thats human nature, no amount of training or discipline could have prepared those first yanks for what they saw.

__________________
Prepare to repel borders.
William L. McGonagle, MOH, U. S. Navy, Commanding Officer, USS LIBERTY 1967.

Quite welcome my friend--and I cant remember many details without my books either because so much is swimming through my brain--ugg--sometime I feel like its going to explode. or

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Lost are only those, who abandon themselves) Hans-Ulrich Rudel.

Sorry if i misunderstood you urgh.

It should be remembered that many of these 'guards' captured at the death camps, were not guards at all. Often, the guards would flee, leaving home guards to take the flak when the camp was liberated.

The problem is that while one may uinderstand why these things happened, they were not punhised. And what sort of exampkle does this give to others. It says that your troops, the good guys, can do what they want.

And unfortunatly, its as true today as it was then.

The victors can do no wrong.

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'England confides that every man will do his duty' Nelson
'I'm a Norfolk man, and glory in being so' Nelson

Proud to be a GRUNT

I think it belongs in this thread, as we seem to be revisiting similar circumstances...and the parent unit involved...

May 28: 7th Co, II Battalion, Regt. ?, LAH massacres 65 (80?) British POWs from the 48th Division at Wormhout near Dunkirk, France. Wilhelm Mohnke is implicated as the officer who gave the execution order. Divisional CO Dietrich is cleared of any involvement in the war crime, as he spent the entire day pinned down in a ditch after troops of the British Gloucestershire Regiment shot up his staff car!

Warwicks and Cheshires together with IF I remember correctly some RA...put up a spirited fight, forced to surrender, original troops took them prisoner and moved on, they were killed by follow up troopers, some reports state that the German troops believed the Brits had used dum dum ammunition in their action.

There were survivors, some including a wounded soldier from original action crawled to nearby pond.

There was a good report I beleive in THEIR FINEST HOUR, think that was the best report I read on it, Ill check, if it was that book then there is a description by German soldier who passed the British prisoners and realised on seeing them what was about to happen, and explained he saw some of the British troops begging for their lives with the same realisation, he left the scene before the act, ill try and find that, with all the stuff I have dont keep too much of a filing system of any sort but will come back on it.

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Prepare to repel borders.
William L. McGonagle, MOH, U. S. Navy, Commanding Officer, USS LIBERTY 1967.

Agree Bish, fully, Im just saying how I think I would have reacted and admit I would have been aw wrong as those yanks to have done so, but I just cannot guarantee I wouldnt have done it, I hope not.

And yes those guards were at the low end of the food chain, and possibly not even German..

But a question Ill ask you mate, your in Bosnia, Nato has set up a camp for Serbs (ok youve got to give a lot of leeway to this....not a serious anology,,,) your the lowest part of the food chain, your guading the main gate, you know the Serbs, Croats, or Chinese are being more than mistreated in there...Youve seen the civilians, men women and children in there and the first battalion of the mismartian people guard regiment randomly killing and people starving to death...Age old question....are you happy to stay on the gate?

Bit like the traffic warden I suppose...someone has to do it, but does it have to be me, no matter what, I would hope I would make sure I wasnt there after the first day.

On totally different topic I suppose and Ill shut up after this one, but similar thing, now I know in Jersey and Guernsey during the German occupation, someone had to wear the British policemans uniform etc even at the risk of being seen as collaborating in certain issues.....But does it have to be me even if I was that policeman before occupation, like the camp guards, Id hope id have the strengh to make sure it was not me. The tower guards were unlucky perhaps wrong time wrong place, but unless they even for a day walked round with blindfolds on then it was a mistake for them to offer themselves as targets for the relieving yanks when it must have been obvious others had fled...

Still now excuse for killing them, but as I said before, I dont know what emotions the yanks suddenly went through on walking through those gates...

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Prepare to repel borders.
William L. McGonagle, MOH, U. S. Navy, Commanding Officer, USS LIBERTY 1967.

Heres more on the German version.

The story was corroborated by: Unterscharfuhrer von Chamier.

As the shots were being fired, there were many Panzers from the 7th Panzer Company driving around or cutting the corner at the crossroads to continue South on N23.

Untersturmfuhrer Heinz Rehagel, Platoon Leader of 1st Platoon, 7th Panzer Kompanie, was the CO of Panzer # 711. Panzer #711 arrived at the crossroads, turned left, and drove South at about 5 miles-per-hour. Rehagel saw in a field further to the South--American POWs standing with their hands raised. Rehagel said he recieved a direct order and fired 20-30 rounds at the POWS with the hatch machinegun.

He fired low bursts at the POWS and some dropped to the ground. He fired into the few that remained standing until they all dropped.

Oberscharfuhrer Roman Clotten, was CO of Panzer #723, fired at targest of approximately 300 yards before the crossroads at Baugnez. Hauptscharfuhrer Hans Siptrott
was in the Panzer in front of him as they slowly proceeded to the crossroads. When they turned the corner to head Sounth on N23, Clotten saw American POWs lined up close together in the field on the right side (west) of the road. 8 SS men wearing the gray-green uniforms, were standing in front of them. Clotten believed that they came from two SPWs parked there. The firing began when Clotten reached the hard surfaced road, N23 and headed South. Clotten believed that the first shots came from them 8 SS men in the gray-green uniforms.

After the first shots, the Americans fell to the ground. Immediately after the first shots--appx 4 of the SS men returned to their [b]SPWs./B] The ones who remained continued to fire on the Americans. As the POWS were killed, Clotten and Siptrott, continued to move South very slowly (at a walking pace), along with the other advancing Panzers.

About 20 yards from the southern edge of where the POWs were lying, Clotten stopped his Panzer because all the Panzers came to a halt. Siptrott was standing in his turret about 20 to 30 yards in front of him. Unterscharfuhrer Erich Dubbert, CO Panzer #713, & Oberscharfuhrer Werner Koch, CO Panzer #112, stopped behind him while Panzer #734 driven by Manfred Thorn, was 30-40 yards in front of Siptrott near a house.

As soon as Clottens Panzer stopped, the gunner, Sturmmann Herman Bock reached for a pistol and stood up on the Panzer. He then turned right and fired several shots at the POWs. When he stopped firing--other Panzers continued to fire. Just before they moved out Clotten remembered two men one of whom was Obersturmfuhrer Rumpf who was walking toward the Panzers fro the direction of the field.

Clotten stayed there for a few minutes before continuing South.

Hauptscharfuhrer Hans Siptrott, Co of Panzer # 731 and his loader, Sturmann Georg Fleps, gave pre-trial statements that Beutner ordered them to stop and turn their cannon onto the POWS. Siptrott said he did not have enough ammo and continued to keep Panzer #731 moving slowly Southwards.

However, when he turned around, he saw Fleps sitting in the loaders seat with a pistol in his hand. Siptrott permitted Fleps to shoot because their Company Commander had made a speech on December 16th stating that they were not to take prisoners. When they were about 30 yards away from the POWS, Siptrott told Fleps to shoot since it was within the scope of their Commanders orders. Fleps fired two shots at the POWs and he saw one fall to the ground.

(((More)))) on Monday.

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Lost are only those, who abandon themselves) Hans-Ulrich Rudel.