Yes, Bish. This is very true under all circumstances.

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Hi Timo--Im getting "The German Version" from the book: "The Malmedy Massacre" written by John M. Bauserman. Apparently he has visited the sites and has done research on this tragedy for around 20 years. Supposedly I guess he might have possibly interviewed some German vets--but I think most of his info is from transcripts and avchives. I also know that he corresponded with and visited several American vets who were at Malmedy. I dont know how accurate anything here really is.

Ill be posting more tomorrow when I have more time.

Also--I have never heard of this author before buying his book--I bought it mainly because it lists the names to the men who were killed and also the names of some of the Germans--which I will also put down here somewhere.

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Lost are only those, who abandon themselves) Hans-Ulrich Rudel.

Fleps statements continued.

Fleps supported Siptrotts tesitmony stating Panzer #731was at the head of the Platoon followed by Oberscharfuhrer Roman Clotton's Panzer. As the Panzers turned onto N23-- Fleps saw an SPW w/ its MG trained on the American POWs. The SPW's CO Beutner, approached Siptrott that he, Beutner had recieved orders from above, to kill the POWs. They continued South and Siptrott saw a pistol in Fleps hand, had placed his hand on Fleps shoulder and ordered him to shoot. Fleps fired at a POW and saw him fall. (((( These statements helped corroborate that most of the men in the SPWS, and Panzers, believed that the POWs were to be shot.))))

When Fleps fired, the 2nd Platoon, 3rd Panzer Pioneer Kompanie, prepared to fire. At the same time, the 9th Panzer Pioneers on the North side of the massacre field under Rumpfs command, also fired when he gave the order.
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Whether Rumpfs order

Fleps statements continued.

Fleps supported Siptrotts tesitmony stating Panzer #731was at the head of the Platoon followed by Oberscharfuhrer Roman Clotton's Panzer. As the Panzers turned onto N23-- Fleps saw an SPW w/ its MG trained on the American POWs. The SPW's CO Beutner, approached Siptrott that he, Beutner had recieved orders from above, to kill the POWs. They continued South and Siptrott saw a pistol in Fleps hand, had placed his hand on Fleps shoulder and ordered him to shoot. Fleps fired at a POW and saw him fall. (((( These statements helped corroborate that most of the men in the SPWS, and Panzers, believed that the POWs were to be shot.))))

When Fleps fired, the 2nd Platoon, 3rd Panzer Pioneer Kompanie, prepared to fire. At the same time, the 9th Panzer Pioneers on the North side of the massacre field under Rumpfs command, also fired when he gave the order.
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Whether Rumpfs order was the command that started it, no one will ever know. 70% of the survivors say a German on the North side of the field fired the first shots. About 2-3 minutes after the firing ceased, the remaining Panzers slowly moved through the area and headed towards Ligneuville.
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Several members of the Pioneers gave evidence that Beutner ordered the POWS shot. Statements of Unterscharfuhrer Sepp Witkowski's SPW crew provided evidence that Beutner was one of the men who gave an order to: "Bump off the Prisoners." This evidence also implicated Rottenfuhrers: Ernst Goldschmidt and Max Hammerer from Beutners SPW. They initially fired from the vehicles that were directly in front of the POWs.

Sturmmann Joachim Hofmann, the driver of Witkowski's SPW, saw 80-100 captured Americans standing in a pasture located SOuth of a cafe and barn on the West side of the road. He saw a "Panther" and Beutners SPW there. As Hofmann passed Beutners SPW, Beutner told Hofmann's crew to get their machineguns readyto "Bump off" the prisoners. Hofmann stopped his vehicle and dismounted--taking up a position near the vehicles endalong with Sturmmann Gustav Neve. Hofmann had a machine pistol on his waist. Just before the shooting began, the crews of the nearby vehicles were shouting: "Bump them off, bump them off." Hofmann fired 4-5 bursts--about 30 shots, into the group of POWs, several of whom were Medics.

The American prisoners, unarmed and standing with their hands over their heads, were making no attempts at escaping. Hofmann said that Rottenfuhrer Ernst Goldschmidt got out of Beutners vehicle, and stood behind it with Hammerer and Beutner. When the order came to open fire, Hofmann saw both Goldschmidt and Hammerer fire their weapons.

))))More tomorrow((((

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Lost are only those, who abandon themselves) Hans-Ulrich Rudel.

All very nice sources but all very much based on the "findings" of the American and Belgian prosecutors who tried to prove the alleged orders from LSSAH high command to shoot all prisoners. De decision for this was made under pressure from the home front, which wanted revenge and were hardly interested in the real killers.

</font>[/quote]Riess basically uses many German post-war trails. He also notes that the U.S. trail was as "political" as all the other traile after it.

R. dismisses much of the later German accounts as being apologetic out of various reasons. I think it's understandable that those SS men who were involved in the massacres had a literally lethal interest in laying smokescreens.

Cheers,

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"Gentlemen! You can't fight in here, this is the War Room!"
(President Merkin Muffley in "Dr. Strangelove")

Statements from Sturmmann Siegfried Jakel, Pioneers Heinz Stickel and Sturmmann Gustav Neve reinforce Hofmanns statement that Beutner gave the order to shoot. Sturmann Jakel arrived at the crossroads between 1-2pm Dec 17-1944. He saw 60-80 American POWS standing in the pasture on the right side of the road. An SPW belonging to Unterscharfuhrer Schuhmacher of 11th Panzergrenadiers was standing on the road and the cannon of his vehicle was pointed into this group. Jakel's SPW was driven by Hofmann, was stopped by Beutner just beyond the center of the pasture on the right side of the road.

Beutner then told Unterscharfuhrer Sepp Witkowski, that the American prisoners were going to be shot. Hearing these orders, the men in Witkowskis SPW loaded their weapons in preparation for firing into them. Jakel assisted by getting the front MG ready and served as a loader. Upon Beutners command to fire, members of the SPW's in the vacinity began to fire. Jakel fired appsx 75 rounds from the front MG, loaded it, and started firing into the American POWs.

Sturmmann Gustav Neve of Witkowskis SPW, arrived at the crossroads between 1-2pm and turned Left in the direction of Ligneuville. This is where he also saw from 80-100 US POWS standing in the field with their hands raised. Beutner ordered Neve to stop and ordered the crew to load their weapons. Neve dismounted while the rest loaded their weapons. Neve and Hofmann were standing to the rear of their SPW when the crews of the other vehicles cied out: "Bump them off, bump them off." Neve had a fast-firing rifle and Hofmann had his MP-38/40. and they both opened fire when everyone else did.

Sturmmann Heinz Stickel fired appx 50 rounds of ammo with his submachinegun, aiming at the heads of the POWs. He was sure he killed all the POWs he aimed at. When the firing stopped, there was a lull fo0r a few minutes while the Panzers continued Southward.

According to some American survivors: this was when the Germans came into the fields to kill the wounded POWs. The statements from Witkowskis crew confirm this and Jakel said he entered the pasture, where he shot at 4-5 wounded POWs with his pistol and fired 1 shot into the heart of each wounded man. After recieveing the orders, Hofmann moved into the field to remder "Mercy Shots" to those POWs still alive. He approached two POWs and fired 6-8 rounds into the head of each. Neve entered the pasture and fired a round into the heads of 8-10 POWs who were still twisting and turning on the ground.

()()More tomorrow()()

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Lost are only those, who abandon themselves) Hans-Ulrich Rudel.

From the photo's I've looked at, and reports from men who escaped for the massacre, all of the verbage seems ludicrous to me. No matter what the poor guards were thinking, they shot unarmed men, who from photo's I've seen were not running away, but standing together to stay warm.

German troops were especially brutal to other races and nationalities because of there stupid evolutionary teaching , The Uberman Doctrine (Aryanism), inwhich everyone was inferior to them. This has not only happen to the German Wehrmache, but too any Army that feels superior to their enemy.

Great post and I agree with you on it. Ill try to post more later as soon as I can. Then when im finished with the German version-ill work on the American version.

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Lost are only those, who abandon themselves) Hans-Ulrich Rudel.

No prove that they were "standing together to stay warm". What makes "reports from men who escaped for the massacre" more reliable than reports from Germans who were there?

Total nonsense.
"German troops were especially brutal to other races and nationalities because of there stupid evolutionary teaching".
No, just to other races (which was bad enough allready). There's absolutely nothing in the "Ubermensch Doctine" you mention, that makes Americans a legimite victim for Nazi followers. Whatever happened at the Baugneze crossroads has nothing to de with the racial aspects of Nazi Germany.

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Also spricht der Narr: 'der Umgang mit Menschen verdirbt den Charakter, sonderlich wenn man keinen hat.'

[quote]Originally posted by AndyW:

Quote:

Riess basically uses many German post-war trails. He also notes that the U.S. trail was as "political" as all the other traile after it. R. dismisses much of the later German accounts as being apologetic out of various reasons. I think it's understandable that those SS men who were involved in the massacres had a literally lethal interest in laying smokescreens. Cheers,

Can you name those "many German post-war trails"?

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Also spricht der Narr: 'der Umgang mit Menschen verdirbt den Charakter, sonderlich wenn man keinen hat.'

Hi Timo--ill try to get back here tomorrow to post more on the German version for you--lately I have'nt had time.

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Lost are only those, who abandon themselves) Hans-Ulrich Rudel.

Found this one today:

http://www.skalman.nu/third-reich/wa...ls-malmedy.htm


Malmedy Massacre Trial (12 May 1946 - 16 July 1946)

Josef Dietrich : Life Imprisonment
Fritz Krämer : 10 Years Imprisonment
Hermann Priess : Life Imprisonment (Commutted to 20 Years Imprisonment)
Jochen Peiper : The Death Sentence (Commutted to Life Imprisonment)
Friedrich Christ : The Death Sentence (Commutted to Life Imprisonment)
Jupp Diefenthal : The Death Sentence (Commutted to Life Imprisonment)
Oskar Klingelhöfer : The Death Sentence (Commutted to Life Imprisonment)
Gustav Knittel : Life Imprisonment
Hans Gruhle : 20 Years Imprisonment
Benno Junker : The Death Sentence (Commutted to Life Imprisonment)
Oswald Siegmund : The Death Sentence (Commutted to Life Imprisonment)
Manfred Coblenz : Life Imprisonment
Otto Wichmann : 10 Years Imprisonment
Georg Fleps : The Death Sentence (Commutted to Life Imprisonment)
Roman Clotten : 10 Years Imprisonment
Theodor Rauh : The Death Sentence (Commutted to Life Imprisonment)
Gustav Sprenger : The Death Sentence (Commutted to Life Imprisonment)
Fritz Eckmann : The Death Sentence (Commutted to Life Imprisonment)
Heinz Godicke : Life Imprisonment
Erich Rumpf : The Death Sentence (Commutted to Life Imprisonment)
Freidel Kies : The Death Sentence (Commutted to Life Imprisonment)
Georg Preuss : The Death Sentence (Commutted to Life Imprisonment)
Erwin Szyperski : Life Imprisonment
Hans Hennecke : The Death Sentence (Commutted to Life Imprisonment)
August Tonk : The Death Sentence (Commutted to Life Imprisonment)
Dr Kurt Sickel : The Death Sentence (Commutted to Life Imprisonment)
Wolfgang Richter : Life Imprisonment
Max Hammerer : The Death Sentence (Commutted to Life Imprisonment)
Hans Trettin : Life Imprisonment
Axel Rodenburg : The Death Sentence (Commutted to Life Imprisonment)
Siegfried Jäkel : The Death Sentence (Commutted to Life Imprisonment)
Erich Werner : Life Imprisonment
Willi Braun : Life Imprisonment
Ernst Goldschmidt : The Death Sentence (Commutted to Life Imprisonment)
Heinz Tomhardt : The Death Sentence (Commutted to Life Imprisonment)
Dr Arndt Fischer : 15 Years Imprisonment
Erich Maute : The Death Sentence (Commutted to Life Imprisonment)
Fritz Gebauer : Life Imprisonment
Hubert Huber : The Death Sentence (Commutted to Life Imprisonment)
Georg Kotzur : Life Imprisonment
Max Rieder : The Death Sentence (Commutted to Life Imprisonment)
Willy Hendel : The Death Sentence (Commutted to Life Imprisonment)
Paul Ochmann : The Death Sentence (Commutted to Life Imprisonment)
Willi von Charnier : Life Imprisonment
Rolf Ritzer : Life Imprisonment
Hans Hillig : 10 Years Imprisonment
Rudolf Schwambach : The Death Sentence (Commutted to Life Imprisonment)
Fritz Rau : Life Imprisonment
Joachim Hofmann : The Death Sentence (Commutted to Life Imprisonment)
Werner Sternebeck : The Death Sentence (Commutted to Life Imprisonment)
Herbert Stock : Life Imprisonment
Arnold Mikolascheck : Life Imprisonment
Heinz Rehagel : The Death Sentence (Commutted to Life Imprisonment)
Edmund Tomczak : Life Imprisonment
Marcel Boltz : Acquitted & Released
Anton Motzheim : The Death Sentence (Commutted to Life Imprisonment)
Heinz Hofmann : Life Imprisonment
Franz Sievers : The Death Sentence (Commutted to Life Imprisonment)
Hans Pletz : Life Imprisonment
Werner Kuhn : The Death Sentence (Commutted to Life Imprisonment)
Heinz Stickel : The Death Sentence (Commutted to Life Imprisonment)
Gerd Neuske : Life Imprisonment
Paul Swigart : The Death Sentence (Commutted to Life Imprisonment)
Kurt Briesemeister : The Death Sentence (Commutted to Life Imprisonment)
Heinz Friedrichs : Life Imprisonment
Willi Schaffer : The Death Sentence (Commutted to Life Imprisonment)
Freidel Bode : The Death Sentence (Commutted to Life Imprisonment)
Armin Hecht : Life Imprisonment
Gustav Neve : The Death Sentence (Commutted to Life Imprisonment)
Valentin Bersin : The Death Sentence (Commutted to Life Imprisonment)
Johann Wasenberger : Life Imprisonment
Hans Siptrott : The Death Sentence (Commutted to Life Imprisonment)
Gunther Weis : The Death Sentence (Commutted to Life Imprisonment)
Arvid Freimuth : (Committed Suicide on the ?th ? 1946)


A group of ex-Waffen SS officers of the 1st Panzer Corps, were convicted before an American military tribunal at Dachau, from the 12th May 1946 - 16th July 1946. Seventy-two were found guilty and forty-two were sentenced to death, all being subsequently commutted to life imprisonment, one committed suicide & one was acquitted, the remainder were sentenced to various terms of imprisonment.

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Darned good post Kai, I still had not had time to get to more stuff on this subject--being that I still unfortunately have to use the public libraries computers and kids get to play games on them and I hardly get an unterrupted sitting here making concentration very difficult

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Lost are only those, who abandon themselves) Hans-Ulrich Rudel.

Thanx Carl!

I just happened to find it in my favourite list on my computer and as I had not seen one earlier I thought it could be useful here.

One thing still I don´t understand...

Marcel Boltz, was released because he was a French citizen by virtue of having been born in Alsace when it belonged to the French. When Alsace became part of the Greater German Reich after the defeat of France, Boltz was recruited into the Waffen-SS. Because he was a citizen of an Allied country, Boltz was automatically innocent and charges against him were dropped


If someone can find another reason for freeing this man, ok, but otherwise I´d say this court was quite...something...

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Well, Dutch SS-untersturmfuehrer Arend de Bruin was also aquitted of the charges against him. He stood trail with Skorzeny on charges of killing pow's, stealing red cross parcels and fighting in the uniform of the enemy.

I don't think he was aquitted because he was Dutch though. But I really don't know anything about the circumstances of his aquittal...

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"Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true!" - Homer Simpson

(banner by Otto)
www.basher82.nl

Given the number of French members of the Waffen-SS executed after the war I think its highly unlikely that he was indeed released for being "automatically innocent" as a citizen of an Allied country.

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Also spricht der Narr: 'der Umgang mit Menschen verdirbt den Charakter, sonderlich wenn man keinen hat.'

Quite welcome Kai, and ill have access to the German version and will be here Tues to post more. Im still in a rush unfortunately.

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Lost are only those, who abandon themselves) Hans-Ulrich Rudel.

Thank you, Guys! Stevin, Timo, Carl!

As well quite a many things jumped up here on my mind.

Anyone know more of this de Bruin fellow? I went after him in Skorzeny´s memoirs but did not find a trace so far.

Timo. Thanx for the information. Do you happen to have more detailed info on these foreign Waffen-SS men executions? Usually the SS on your collar meant rather a quick death, and only the French legion to my knowledge could save you, if even that. Sometimes I think even that´s a legend only.

Thanx, Carl! I would have never got hold of the Malmedy massacre story otherwise, or maybe when I was 70...

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Quite welcome Kai. Also--I have heard of De Bruin--but I dont know what or where BUT-I have heard about him.

Ill try to be back here this evening with nothing but more on the Malmedy Massacre and maybe some Bios if there is time.

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Lost are only those, who abandon themselves) Hans-Ulrich Rudel.