More:

The Germans tried to condone what happened at Baugnez with one explanation saying that the ground fog partly concealed the Americans as the main body of the Kampfgruppe approached the crossroads. The Germans thought the AMericans were armed and thus fired at them. The Germans said they did not know the Amis were Prisoners because of the distance and ground fog made it too difficult to recognize anything.

Another story was that while the German guards watched, the Ami POWs were jostling around, stomping their feet trying to stay warm. One of the guards possibly thought that the POWs were moving too much, so he fired a warning shot which went low and hit an American. this caused a major movement by the POWs. At that time, 1st Lieutenant John Munzinger (B-Battery) shouted: "Stand Fast"!!! and the Germans interpreted this as a signal for them to make a break for it, and the Germans opened fire. This seems to be a far-fetched thoery--based on testimony. Othe rreasone given by the Germans were even more far-fetched such as, the POWs suddenly made a mass break for freedom or they grabbed their weapons and attempted to do battle with the few Germans guarding them.

After the war, members of Kampfgruppe Peiper were found in various allied detention camps and brought to Dachau for trial as war criminals. Several who took an active part in the shooting at Baugnez were not brought to trial because they had been killed in action before the end of the war--and others were not needed as the prosecutors felt they had enough men brought to trial. Beutner and Witkowski were killed at Stoumont, a few days after the massacre and Poetschke was killed in Hungary shortly before the end of the war.

On May 16 1945, 74 suspects were brought to trial before an American Military Court at Dachau. Of the 74, 43 were sentenced to death, 22 were sentenced to life imprisonment, 2 recieved Twenty years, and 5 recieved Ten Years imprisonment. One of them was returned to France for trial for crimes he supposedly committed there and was acquitted. Of the 74 tried, only 30 were involved in the shooting of the American POWs at the Baugnez Crossroads.

Peiper was sentenced to death, incarcerated at Landsberg Prison, Landsberg Am Lech, Bavaria. On April 12, 1948, the Counter Intelligence Corps recieved info that former members of the Peiper Kampfgruppe would attempt to liberate their commander. Five Germans would travel to the prison dressed in US Army Uniforms. Before they arrived--the imposters would place a phone call to prison officials stating that five members of the War Crimes Commission were being sent to question Peiper. Once inside, they--on seeing their ex-CO, would attempt to overcome the guards and liberate their former CO and other condemned comrades.

The Guards had been alerted and armed with an MG and placed in a concealed position covering the entrance. This attempt to liberate him never came about for whatever reasons.

Due to the political situations in the early 1950's, none of the death sentences were carried out, and all of the men who were convicted--were paroled. Peiper was released from prison just prior to Christmas in December 1956--the last of Kampfgruppe Peiper to be released.

On July 14, 1976, Peiper was killed in Traves, France, by an "unknown" group "the Avengers." They set his house on fire and slashed the local fire company's hoses. Peiper died in the fire and the subsequent investigation proved that the body pulled from the burned out rubble, was definately Peiper. ((What is so conviently left out is))that Peiper fought with his attackers using a Shotgun and a .22 cal rifle. There was much evidence of him firing many many rounds in defense of his home.))

Peiper did not die a coward.

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Lost are only those, who abandon themselves) Hans-Ulrich Rudel.

I guess Peiper was ready to die, because he would not leave his house to be burned. Instead he died with the house burned. And he was warned by many people not to stay there...

I am quite sure Peiper did not shoot towards the people who killed him, because with all the experience he had I am sure he would have killed a couple of those "enemies" for sure if he wanted.But he saw no more use in killing and gave himself as a sacrifice, I think.

R.I.P. Jochen!

By the way: . His son, Hinrich, now lives in the States, where he hopefully found a better life.

Anyone heard of him? Well, he might have changed his name altogether considering the circumstances.

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Well said Kai, and I agree with it. I also think that he (Peiper) did not want to kill any of his attackers and was well capable of doing so. Darn shame he was murdered by some fools filled with rampant hatred.

I had not heard that his son lived here but--one of Erich Topps sons lives here--Michael Topp.

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Lost are only those, who abandon themselves) Hans-Ulrich Rudel.

Of course you had Peiper the SS soldier and Peiper the Blow-Torch king and Peiper the Butcher of Boves! While the American trial concentrated on Malmedy, (and why not as the Malmedy murdered were Americans), Peiper’s ‘Blow-torch’ brigade were also wanted for civilian massacres in the Ukrain, Belgium and Italy. They got the ‘Blow-torch’ tag as they left a trail of burnt villages - and people inside them. Despite the fact they were the only Germans at Boves in Italy, they claimed its wasn’t them. Of course, to have admitted it was would have also had to admit they, the mighty SS, had the sh/t blasted out of them by a rag-tag band of Partisans! Which they did of course, and instead of attempting a counter attack destroyed 350 house and murdered 43 people including a priest and an industrialist who were trying to mediate, (Father Giuseppe Bernardi and Alessandro Vassallo). They gave them a tour of the destruction then burnt them alive in their car. By all means go to Boves and visit the historical centre and speak with survivors, I have.

Around his trial there were issues connected with the Cold War/Soviets, but also technicalities that confessions were ‘extracted’ by American investigators. Missing dentures, broken bones and a lot of defendants who could no longer father children.

When released Peiper went back to West Germany where a German investigation was opened in 1964. However, aided by his connections and expensive lawyers, nothing came of this other than he being forced to resign from Porsche. He also had to leave Volkswagen when they found his presence was not condusive to business as far as the German people were concerned! He moved to France as a translator and in 1975 French journalist Pierre Durand wrote an expose on the "SS butcher" living quietly in the French countryside near Vesoul. A year later a French ironmonger and Communist Party member recognised Peiper from his picture in the "Brown Book", (a directory of ‘wanted’ people compiled by the East Germans). For two weeks he received death threats and a sign was placed along the road to his house, ‘Peiper SS’.

A CIA agent in Bern, Switzerland, claimed to have unmasked Peiper and passed on the information? Yet Peiper's residence was not a real secret. A group calling themselves the "Avengers" (supposedly composed of former members of the French resistance) claimed responsibility for Peiper's death. But it is believed that Israel's Massed was actually responsible? They were operating in France at the time against Palestinians and thought to have the motivation and means to kill him, and Simon Wiesenthal had also suddenly started up a campaign against Peiper. Why, Peiper’s Blow-torch'ers often camped at Dachau – what for, the fishing?

Peiper owned a pistol and was lent a .22 rifle. On the night of Bastille Day, neighbours only heard one shot around 22:30. The remains were found around 01:00 next morning. A roasted torso on the bedroom floor about a metre long and minus hands and feet, which were never found.

No.9

Waffen-SS certainly has a bad name for attrocities, but still I would like names and places here, and sources. I am not saying that they did not exist, I just want more to prove it.

On Boves I dont´see Peiper saying he was not there:

On 18.9.43, Peiper found himself in Cuneo, together with his SPW-Batallion and SS-Aufklärungsabteilung 1. It was their mission to disarm the now capitulated Italian Army. SS-Obersturmführer Dinse was Cuneo’s military commander. An Italian Lt. Colonel introduced himself to Peiper as being a diplomatic member of the Italian Fourth Army, and told Peiper to leave the province of Cuneo within the next 24 hours, otherwise his Batallion would be completely destroyed. He remarked that Peiper did not stand a chance in the mountains. Peiper’s reaction was quick, and he ordered leaflets to be dispersed which stated that the Italian Army was to surrender. Peiper drove to Boves to point out to the Mayor what the consequences were, what would happen to civilians in accordance with international low, who fought together with the regular army or partisans. SW of Cuneo, Peiper’s battalion stood against a large formation of the Italian Fourth Army, reinforced with partisans. The city of Boves and the slopes of Monta Bisalta behind the city, about 6 km S of Cuneo, was the center of partisan activity. A detailed overview of what happened that day is needed, as it would lead to a juridical investigation in 1965 against Jochen Peiper and his Kompanieführer; Erhard Gürhs and Otto Dinse. On the morning of 19.9 SS-Oberscharführer Karl Wiezoreck and SS-Unterscharführer Kurt Butenhoff drove from Cuneo to Boves in a Kübelwagen, they were looking for spare parts in an abandoned depot of the Italian Army. When they arrived on the local market, they were taken ‘prisoner of war’ by Italian soldiers. They saw how Italian civilians were loading ammunition and food in trucks. Then they were blindfolded, and taken to the mountains S of Boves. They were questioned and locked up in a tower next to a chapel. Dinse heard from the Italian police officers, that two of his men were captured by the Italian Army. Peiper ordered Dinse to get them back. He left with a truck and one SPW, 10 soldiers, 11 with Dinse included, to Boves. When he arrived he found an abandoned city, but he heard from the local police that the two captured SS men were held in a camp in the surrounding mountains. Dinse left, searching for the camp. Outside Boves he was ambushed by Italian soldiers. He reported this to Peiper through the radio. Peiper told him to drove back to a point where he would meet him. At that time, the Italian soldiers opened fire, wounding several and killing SS-Sturmmman Willi Steinmetz. Under the cover of smoke grenades, the others pulled back. Peiper arrived with 13 and 14 Kompanie at 13:00 in Boves. SS-Untersturmführer Erhard Gührs went left and Peiper went, together with Dinse’s unit, through the centrum of Boves. Peiper recalls how:

“We were ‘welcomed’ with heavy rifle and machinegun fire, from the houses and the surrounding hills, hand grenades were thrown at us from above, very dangerous for opened-topped SPW. There were several men wounded and some dead, I had holes in my uniform and my radio was destroyed. I ordered a withdrawal, and ordered the Grillen (Mechanized artillery) to open fire on that part of the town where the enemy was. Several houses caught fire, and under cover of the smoke, soldiers and civilians withdrew in a part of the town we could not observe.”

Peiper went forwards, driving through Boves and reached the unit of Dinse at the other side. He talked with Dinse and Gühr about the possibility, to release the two captured men and to remove the body of their fallen comrade, Steinmetz. They went forwards and found his body. At that time, mortar and grenade fire opened up on them. Peiper ordered the Grillen to answer the fire. The Italians fled and Wiezoreck and Butenhoff escaped. They waved with tissues to show their location to Peiper. The firing was ceased, and the units went back to Cuneo. The Grille platoon stayed in Boves, to destroy the remaining weapons and ammunition. Peiper:

“When I returned in Cuneo, the Prefect, General Salvi, offered me his apologies for the incident at Boves, he told me that the Communists were to be blamed.”

In 1968 the German Minister of Justice declared that there was no reason to persecute Peiper, and the case was dismissed on 23.12.68.

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in Northern Italy in the summer of 1943 two of Sturmbannführer Joachim Peiper's NCO's were kidnapped by the Italian Army (who had now changed sides) in the small town of Boves. Peiper's reaction was to shell the town. This resulted in the death of 37 civilians. In 1968 an attempt was made to bring Peiper to trial by the Italians but the case was later dropped due to lack of evidence.

http://www.forces70.freeserve.co.uk/.../ATROCITES.htm
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Sept 19: Reacting to a report that renegade Italian troops have captured 2 SS officers & are planning to attack the division, SS-standartenführer Joachim Peiper shells the town of Boves with 150mm SP guns. 34 (37?) Italian civilians are killed. In 1968, Italian authorities accuse Peiper of war crimes for the attack, but the charges are dropped for lack of evidence.*

* source: Michael Reynolds The Devil's Adjutant

http://www.wssob.com/atrocities.html#

1964: West German government opens official investigation into SS-Standartenführer Joachim Peiper role in the massacre of civilians during antipartisan operations near the Italian city of Boves. No charges are filed, but Peiper loses his job at Porsche as a result of his noteriety

http://www.wssob.com/conclusion.html
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I hope you have more on this...I mean never heard of this so I hope you have clear evidence on this?

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Just to see on your point of view in whole, what is your opinion on allied attrocities or where there none? Or were they legally explained as counter measures?

I myself know many dreadful things and think they should not have happened. But without clear evidence mistakes are bound to happen. Just like in Ardennes two American soldiers were shot as spies ( thought as Skorzeny´s spies ) and I think that´s two too many? With reason I bet they would have survived. I cannot think of a worse way to die than die by the system you defend and shot for possibly not knowing who Mickey Mouse is?

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If 'Das Reich' were Waffen-SS, then Oradour-sur-Glane must rank quite high on the atrocity list ?

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"Stand by to pull me out of the seat if I get hit" - Guy Gibson

Truly horrible! Totally unnecessary!

Here´s data on this and a couple of sites, and pics:

http://www.oradour.btinternet.co.uk/

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Question : Why were the people killed and the town destroyed?

Answer : It was a reprisal for the killing of Kämpfe. It does seem barbaric in the extreme, but, this is I think, the answer. Diekmann went to Oradour to destroy. At no time did he or his troops mention to anyone the name of Kämpfe, indeed Diekmann never even mentioned the name to his own men. There was no search for anything in the town, men, arms, ammunition, prohibited merchandise or any other substances. All that happened after the SS rode into town on a storm of wheels, was destruction.

Diekmann was on the 10th June, a thoroughly exasperated man, he had experienced a wretched march from Montauban to St. Junien and had heard reports from all quarters of the depredations of the Resistance, in fact had experienced them himself. The news of the drastic action taken by his colleagues at Tulle (in accordance with the Sperrle orders and Brigadeführer Lammerding's own orders for dealing with terrorists) would be fresh in his mind. The abduction of his friend and comrade Helmut Kämpfe was simply the last straw. When the Milice came to him with their news, implicating Oradour, he took immediate action and then reported what he had done. He did not disobey orders to take hostages if Kämpfe were not found, simply because those orders were never given.

When Diekmann finally did report to Stadler in Limoges that afternoon, Stadler was truly shocked at what had happened, recognising that Diekmann had over-reacted and that unlike in Russia, the affair could not remain hidden. Nevertheless some (ineffectual) steps were taken to try and reduce the impact of the damage as evidenced by the burial parties sent to Oradour on 11th and 12th June.
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On June 10, 1944, the SS occupied the town. The entire population of the town was rounded up. Men were separated from women and children. The women and children were herded into a church. The men were locked in 5 garages and barns, where they were shot. The buildings were then torched. The church with 400 women and children locked inside was also razed to the ground. The SS reported 548 "enemy" killed, with one SS dead and one "wounded". Post-war investigators estimated 393 residents of the town, 167 people from the surrounding countryside, 33 people from Limoges and 55 from other areas were killed during this rampage.

http://users.pandora.be/dave.depicke...dourtoday.html

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Going through the site and seeing all the pics--really takes one there and makes you think.

No 9 in no way do I attempt to make a "hero" out of Pieper--especially for his participation or alledged participation in Oradour Sur Glane.

As for what happened in Russia--and not that im defending any actions there but--you also have to see if from their point of view too--to begin to understand why certain things happened in the way that history has shown. By all means--I never will condone the murderings of any innocents--be they soldiers or civilians.

My last piece on Peiper was just to say what is apparently the truth--he was no coward. Had the Germans won the war--he would be a hero--not a criminal.

Had the allies lost--then men like Bomber Harris among others would be looked at as criminals who committed great war crimes. See what I mean?

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Lost are only those, who abandon themselves) Hans-Ulrich Rudel.

I don´t think any of us think you were making a "hero" of Peiper in the sense of the massacres he was connected with, Carl!If anyone did he should change his mind right now!

As well I think we should concentrate on the war but be aware of what else happened. The other one doesn´t go without the other one in WW2. The German politics in the east were cruel reality, and as well the Russians gave the lot to the Germans later on.On the western front I think in comparison only little things happened as in the eastern front it was daily business.It doesn´t make it any more legal, but to know what happened is important.
To stop these things from happening again any way we can.

I do think though that bringing up the German attrocities only is not TRUE history. The Victor´s history yes, but not the whole truth.
Our aim should be to see the things with both eyes, not just the things we´d like to see.
Politic decisions, generals killing their soldiers for their oldfashioned ideas, terror bombing, concentration camps etc etc.
One thing is certain: You don´t read you don´t know.( unfortunately the victor usually does not give much info on its mistakes...but we are in the position when the files are starting to open up!)

A couple of examples I wonder why they were not dealt with in Normandy:

The bombing of Caen with Goodwood. The Germans were not in the town. The bombing destroyed the city, and killed 3,000 French civilians. The operation was a failure. Who is responsible? Yes, I am quite sure that the result of seeing the bombing boosted the morale among men but would it boost to know 3,000 French died for that?
As well this was not seen as "serious setback" but a "cost worth paying" as these bombings took place at Cobra and then, as 500 US soldiers died by friendly fire, then it was seen as "bad bombing method"..Ok, so you can kill French but not US soldiers by bombing..

As well at Goodwood the tanks were sent without infantry...over 400 tanks were destroyed and if I remember right that was over 30% of the allied tanks in the western front. The attack system was not changed, and Monty carried on.

There´s plenty more...but that´s just history.
I would call these murder, actually. Whoever did it wherever.And to their own men or allies!

It is not so simple to deal these things in my opinion.But trying to keep emotions is important, as it´s not possible to deal things neutrally if you are full of hatred or sorrow.

Just my 2 cents.



PS. Those French who killed Peiper are criminals as far as I am concerned. Anyone who takes law into their own hands without proper authority is a criminal.
And cowards as well for not giving themselves up.
Some of my family were killed by Russians in ww2 but I am not going around looking for Russians that I could kill with Molotov cocktails or rip their arms and legs apart.
The whole Winter War was one big attrocity, by the way...

[ 31. January 2003, 03:01 AM: Message edited by: Kai-Petri ]

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Hi Kai--I didnt think anyone was thinking I was calling him a hero--but from what I understood from No 9's post--it appeared to me that he might had not completely understood my post on Pieper. [img]smile.gif[/img]

He's a criminal--for those other massacres--true--but I firmly believe that he had nothing at all to do with Malmedy. I think he is just popular to blame because he is Waffen SS.

I also truely feel he should have been tried for the other acts he did take part in. I think those acts were forgotten because of his Malmedy trial. Also--no more fitting of a place to have it at than in at Dachau Concentration Camp

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Lost are only those, who abandon themselves) Hans-Ulrich Rudel.