There is something seriously wrong with the my generation because they could care less about remembering those who fell in battle in WW2. They think that WW2 soldiers didn't do crap for us and it really ticks me off. The majority of the kids in my class think that the d-day invasion shouldn't be remembered because it isn't an important event. If anyone has any opinion on this matter, feel free to post it. I think it's wrong that kids aren't respecting the men that died for this country. I'm certainly grateful for all those men that defended our country and maintained its freedom. I'm only 15, but i'm old enough to know that war veterans should be respected because if it weren't for them, the Third Reich could be in power of the world right now, and perhaps we might not even be here.

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"Only the dead have seen the end of war". -Plato

"A people that have forgotten their heritage,are a people who have lost faith in themselves". -Winston S. Churchill

Hi, welcome to the forum! No need to worry, most of your friends will probably come to respect elders later on. I guess it's just some kind of 'teenage- ignorance' so to speak.

Best regards/ Daniel

it's a matter of perspective. The "younger" generation has no clue that they will be up there soon enough, 65 and older. heck I'm going on 50 and when I walk by the high school down the street I am referred to as pops by the "kids" geezo I look younger than many of the dope heads at 16 ! I tell ya it has struck me several times just to say " call me pops one more time and I'm gonna kick you a** " nope I restrained myself

Hi, I'm 20 and I think that young people aren't very much interested in anything.

Not in history, politics, actuallity, ...
So I don't think that it is only WW2

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Uhm, and what about those war veterans who fought for the Third Reich? Same respect for them or less?

Just a thought.

Cheers

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"Gentlemen! You can't fight in here, this is the War Room!"
(President Merkin Muffley in "Dr. Strangelove")

Andy, dont know...do you mean the German soldier respected by German folk or in general by the rest of us worldwide?

I dont know if they are respected in Germany but I dont see why not, they belong to families who surely would be interested in their own families histories?

I can only speak for myself in the UK, and I certainly respect anyone who has served in the British and Commonwealth forces. I dont dismiss our enemies at the time as some of our press might do when it comes to Germany v England at football time.

I dont think the majority of UK folk think any different of the Germans becuase of WW2 and our seemingly penchant as a nation for not getting on too well with the French. Others might disagree with me though.

One thing that stuck with me was last years 2002 festival of rememberance at the Albert hall, where the Royal British Legion together with past and present service folk and relations remember those that served. To lots of martial music and hymns etc, a good tribute as always.

This year marching in the areana with folks in uniform old and young were 2 vets together one from the Desert Rats and a member of the Afrika Korps and they got a rousing reception.

I know the reunions of the Afrika Korps and other German units always have a smattering of allied ex enemy forces amongst them at times and certainly nothing new, but to see this in front of the military family of the commonwealth was a defining moment to many. And about time too.

Oh and Ive been busy, the wife caught me, I took a week off to do some decorating and not allowed to look at computer, I havent forgotten my promised reply on the bomber offensive.

Cheers.

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Prepare to repel borders.
William L. McGonagle, MOH, U. S. Navy, Commanding Officer, USS LIBERTY 1967.

Honestly, it seems to me that lately more and more young people are interested and respectful. When we do displays, all the kids are WWII buffs of one level or another. Up until SPR and BoB came out, I was the only WWII enthusiast I knew! It seems to me that it's all the rage now with more interest and respect than ever.

As far as your generation - mine was the same. I think all are the same. At 15 most kids don't really think about much but hormones. But I guess that's kinda how it's supposed to be. Don't worry - some will not be so ignorant when they age a little bit.

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Living History at http://oldreliable9_47.tripod.com

I agree with most of what has been said but would like to add my own theory, I think the big problem with our generation (I am going on 18 if that makes it more specific) is that there is a lot of anger and 'attitude' but no passion. What I mean is perhapse best shown by music, most modern music (rap and hip hop in particular) is full of anger and so on but it is 'loose' and directed at the sort of morals and values that people have been so busy trying to build up since the war. People want respect for being angry and freedom for themselves but not for others. Anyhow, I think the difference between my generation and our forbears is passion, my generation has none, it has all been replaced by 'attitude' and so no one is willing to sacrifice anything for anyone. If you stuck my generation in 1914 I would bet you anything that hardly anyone would even consider lieing about their age to go fight. Take 9/11, in the UK people called out for 'action' and a fight against terrorism. Despite this recruitment figures for the forces are still dropping.

I will stop there before I start to rant...oops, too late.

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There's no honorable way to kill, no gentle way to destroy. There is nothing good in war. Except its ending.

This is from an email that I got from the last surviving officer from U 181--in other words--a ww2 GERMAN combat veteran serving in the Kriegsmarine.

Also this hits a chord with something that Andy said about the Older Europeans having a different set opinions towards Americans than some of the younger generation of Europeans have.

Dieter--and millions of Germans still remember what America did for them called: The Berlin Airlift."

He stated that he and many many older Germans are very appreciative at what we did for them and also stated that many younger Germans do not appreciate our efforts because they have not had to fight--they have not starved--they have not done without, and they all have had homes and jobs--clothes--medicines and planty to eat----SO they have forgotton.

He as well as several other ww2 German Soldiers and Sailors- have told me that no--they do not feel as if the younger German generations respect them and they feel very let down and being stabbed in the back--again.

These vets that I know and are friends with--all feel the same way. They all also feel that they get much more positive respect from people from other nations more so than Germany. He also states that ww2 German soldiers get more respect from Americans and British--so much more than from some younger Germans, and that it greatly saddens them that some younger Germans have forgotton what the ww2 generation did--for their country.

On the other hand--these vets are greatful to finally be recognized by others around the world--and accepted and respected.

Its no wonder why so many German vets now live in the USA and in England--as well as in other countries.

These vets feel they made so many ultimate sacrifices for an ungreatful country--same as in ww1. Maybe the rest of the world is making it up to these vets--what some younger Germans refuse to do.

[ 25. January 2003, 04:08 PM: Message edited by: C.Evans ]

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Lost are only those, who abandon themselves) Hans-Ulrich Rudel.

I dont know how the German youth treats its vets of old, but maybe if there is no reverence it could be down to us the allies of the 2nd world war maybe?

Lets face it, we played a big part in telling the Germans to erradicate the idea of teutonic warfare and where behind the idea that future youngsters should grow up in that land with a disdain for war, correct me if Im wrong if there are any Germans on board at the moment.

We oversaw their rebuilding and were in at the initial planning stages of thier "re education" if you like.

We didnt want them to be warlike anymore, and maybe this has now filtered down to the extent they have no reverence for their old soldiers if this is indeed the case?

But thinking of present day, we cant complain too loudly when Germany seems as a nation to not want to march off to wars now that we want them to.
After all thats what we wanted after the war wasnt it?

Talking of Berlin airlift, found this on a war board I was posting too this evening Think its directly from one of my fave sites, Britains small wars.

Maybe we should open a thread on the airlift, ok after the war, but Id go as far as saying it was part of ww2...maybe...

The Berlin airlift was preceded by nearly three years of constant tension and sniping by the Russians against the Western Allies in an attempt to drive them out of West Berlin and Western Germany by a variety of tactics, including searches, blocking transportation of even basic supplies to West Berlin and intimidating West German Civilians.

At midnight on 23rd June, the Russians cut the electrical power to the western sectors of Berlin, and at six o'clock on the 24th June, they severed all road and barge traffic to and from the city, and at the same time they stopped the transfer of all supplies from the Soviet sector. On 24th June, the western Sectors of Berlin were under siege.

The only route remaining open to the Western Allies were the three air corridors leading from the western sectors of Germany to the Western controlled Berlin sectors. Each corridor was twenty statute miles wide, extending vertically from ground level to 10,000ft. Two terminated in the British zone and one in the American zone. The two British corridors ran over relatively flat country, but the American corridor crossed over ground rising to 3,000ft over much of its length. To supply West Berlin, the Americans had only 100 C-47 transport aircraft in Europe, and the RAF could add 150, mostly Dakotas with a few Avro Yorks. This meant that against the daily requirement of 13,500 tons of food for Berlin, the USAF and RAF between them could probably airlift in 700 tons at the outside.

Some American military advisors cautioned a less aggressive stand over Berlin, while they flew to Britain to find out the British attitude toward the Soviet move. They were surprised when the British Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, Ernest Bevin, informed them that the Cabinet had voted not to sanction a withdrawal from Berlin, and that RAF transport aircraft were already flying in supplies. The British government's viewpoint was that the situation would be back to normal in a few days, once the Russians had made their gesture. The British attitude did much to strengthen American resolve, although President Truman's resolve needed no strengthening. He was adamant that the Western Allies should maintain their presence in West Berlin. On 25th June, Truman ordered that all resources were to be channelled into forming a viable airlift organization.

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Prepare to repel borders.
William L. McGonagle, MOH, U. S. Navy, Commanding Officer, USS LIBERTY 1967.

"Men it's been a long war, it's been a tough war. I am proud to have served wuth each and every one of you-you have found in each other a bond that exists only in combat. We've shared foxholes, held each other in dire moments....seen death together....You all desrve long and happy lives in peace"

This comes from the German General in 'Band Of Brothers'. Since my grandfather fought for the Allied cause, and because the Allies fought for my safety-i give the utmost respect to them, and where I can, I let my buddies know about there deeds as well. But I am open-minded about war. The German soldiers fought for a cause, as did the Allies, they "fought bravely, and proudly for their country" and that deserves respect-WAR IS HELL-You cannot hold the Germans in bad regard because you don't agree with their cause. The German soldier was the greatest soldier since the Legionnaire of the Caesars, the only Germans I have things against, are those "soldiers" if you would call them that, that derived pleasure from hurting other human beings.

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"GARRY OWEN"-Traditional war-cry of the US 7th Cavalry.
"CURRAHEE"-War-cry of the US 506th PIR.
"Everybody thinks that they are going to get the chance to punch some Nazi in the face at Normandy-and those days are over, they are long gone"-Lt Chris Burnett

Actually this is the dilemma the "younger" German generation is facing: The vast majority of them knew that their own fathers and grandfathers weren't just jew-killing monsters. The vast majority of those Wehrmacht members was drafted, highly indoctrinized, influenced near to brainwash by a perfect propaganda machinery and true believes; they really thought that they fight for a good, German cause, at least in the beginning. In the end, under the impression of firebomed cities and a ruthless Red Army, they fought for the very existance of themselfs and their families at home.

You will not find too many Germans pointing fingers on individual soldiers, at least not unless their membership in the SS or other nazi organisations or their individual actings during the war gives reason to that.

On the other hand the younger german generation knows about the bad cause their fathers and grandfathers fought for, and, unfortunately, they have to learn in form outside sources (History, IMT). Their Dads and Grandpas hadn't the strenght to tell them about their own part, role and experiences in Hitlers War machine. The until this days lasting myth of a "clean" and "brave" Wehrmacht was built by the vet-generation and until the late 1960s the fight on the East front was written to be just a "normal" war against bolshevism. In fact it was, as we know now, a criminal war of annilihation, willingly fought and observed by the average landser. The younger German generation never got a full answer to the question "What did you do in the war, Dad?". In fact, they were lied to until the late 1960s.

Of course it's easier for the next generation to deal with the bad cause their fathers were fighting for, and I don't blame the generation who was "out there" for that they cannot talk, confess, critically reconsider their own part in this war. This hurts too much, I guess.

I talked or listened to some remarkable vets who were able to reflect their part in Hitlers war machine with a near-to self-destructing honesty: They personally did nothing wrong, they were drafted, they never participated in crimes or atrocities, but they knew that the nazi cause was not just and fought anyway for it, may it been to save her country "good or bad" or because the will to survive. My utmost respect to those. They did nothing wrong, but were doing wrong.

I talked to many others, who did not know of crimes, did not saw any, did not thought about it and consequentely insist that they weren't "wrong", at least not individually. This is true on the individial side, but untrue on the big picture.

And I can't blame those vets who whitewashed their crimes and lied to thier children or didn't tell anything 'cause I know that those vets need to have at least one reason for their fighting, otherwise the suffering, the deaths of their comrades, the lost youth, the lost homeland would be completely useless (as it was) to them. And this is pretty hard to confess.

And the irony is that the "just" side happens to be on the winning side.

Cheers,

[ 26. January 2003, 11:16 AM: Message edited by: AndyW ]

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"Gentlemen! You can't fight in here, this is the War Room!"
(President Merkin Muffley in "Dr. Strangelove")

Hi Urgh--yep--thats how many of them feel--according to the vets I speak and write to.

We did play a big part in forcing the Germans to change--and for that matter--maybe we went way too far in many things. Personally--I am a firm believer of making sure one knows ones past--so that maybe their future will be better by not making the same mistakes as happened in the past.

This cannot be possible unless the past is tought in an equal unbiased way. Japan for instance--is going about it the wrong way--but thats a different story.

I think "we" forced too much of a change too quickly and that has now had negative connotations. "We" were wrong in some aspects--and that cannot be changed now even if "we" were so inclined.

Urgh hit off to several great points and I fully agree with him on them. the history he also presented is the truth.

Ryan also his on some good points as well--on the feelings of soldiers and why they fought for their respective sountries--whether right or wrong.

Andy--im thankful that you did come out with your thoughts on this--as it is important for us to see the German way of thinking on this.

I just wish that just because a man was a member of a certain unit--that he isnt wrongfully blamed for the actions of the ones who did them. I know several Waffen SS vets--not one of them committed any crimes--they did their duty as Elite Soldiers--even if it was for a monster they did it for--these men cannot be blamed for doing their duty as an Elite Soldier.

I agree--the War on the Eastern Front was a war of criminal annihliation--but both sides are to fully blame.

Well said--the "just" side is the winning side--that I also fully agree with you on.

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Lost are only those, who abandon themselves) Hans-Ulrich Rudel.

Perhaps an important key of remembrance is what is being taught in schools or rather what isn’t? As said the Japanese appear to virtually ignore the period thus not having to deal with items like the inhumane treatment of prisoners. Germany, I belive, has to be viewed as a new Germany, which I believe it to be.

Everyone should take pride in their country and every country has much to be proud of. If Germany is not presented as a county that has changed then there is a real danger that the ideals of the recent past may be tried again by the current generation, or the lesson becomes non sensible. Would a teacher enter a class and say; ’Today we will look at how our country initiated the death of 50 million people.’

I don’t see it requires much logic or reasoning to work out that the vast majority of W.W.II German servicemen found themselves in service the same way as men in other countries. Today Britain and America have men poised around Iraq. Has anyone asked the servicemen for their opinions? Have the respective governments held referendums among their nationals before committing these troops?

However, there is warfare and there is murder. I believe every incident has to be evaluated according to its circumstances. If an organisation such as the SS claim they have a proud and noble military heritage then it should be obvious as such. Some committed despicable acts for which some have been brought to account. If the SS want to demonstrate they are as they claim they should actively purge themselves of those among them who are not worthy of the accolade.

No.9

[ 28. January 2003, 11:18 PM: Message edited by: No.9 ]

But even if we maybe cannot blame them individually because they did nothing wrong as an individual, we can held them responsible for voluntarily joining a criminal organization. Of course there is an individual difference between a passive member of a criminal gang and a perpetuator in that gang, but those men have to reflect their own part more critically and take responsibility for what they did (or didn't).

Those many SS vets who still try to sell their apologetic "I just served in the decent elite part of the SS, and had nothing to to with the ugly rest", or recent silly attempts to whitewash the SS by an untenable seperation between "bad Allgemeine SS" vs. "good (elite) Waffen-SS" cause a big distrust in my generation generation who took a careful look behind the "intact world"-stories, filled with myths about decent and chivalirous SS fighters and the other lies told by their our fathers and grandfathers. That's O.K, I for myself wanna learn my countries history as it was, and not as it should be. If it might hurt, it hurts, still far better and more useful to me than living in a cookoo's home full of myths about "heroes" and "good causes" just to not piss of any vet.

Unfortunately, those who were SS and had really nothing to do with crimes or nazi weltanschauung are lumped up with those apologists, deniers, liars, whitwashers. Sad for them. More sad that many ot them never had the strength to reflect their own role as an SS member more critically.


[qoute]
I agree--the War on the Eastern Front was a war of criminal annihliation--but both sides are to fully blame.
[/quote]

C'mon Carl, are your seriously suggesting that the side who is planning a criminal war of aggression against another country, issuing clearly criminal orders to thier soldiers in order to fight a war of conquest, looting and extermination against this country's people and her basis of living, and finally start this war in an unseen ruthless manner is just as equally to blame as the side who becomes a victim of that very agression ?

Of course the Russians weren't choir boys, but hey, what do you expect if being under attack and facing an extermination programme put on you by your enemy? Guess that isn't really a sympathy-multiplier. At least the Russkies never planned to exterminate large portions of the Germans, destroy the nation and enslave the rest. They didn't lined up one million of them and shot 'em into the head, too.

Even not after the Germans did that to them. Basically, given the amount of horror and destruction we caused on the Russians, we came of easily.

Cheers,

[ 27. January 2003, 01:57 PM: Message edited by: AndyW ]

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"Gentlemen! You can't fight in here, this is the War Room!"
(President Merkin Muffley in "Dr. Strangelove")

Of course the Russians weren't choir boys, but hey, what do you expect if being under attack and facing an extermination programme put on you by your enemy?

No they were not, I agree. But how do you explain in that case the Katayan killings?

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Prepare to repel borders.
William L. McGonagle, MOH, U. S. Navy, Commanding Officer, USS LIBERTY 1967.

Interesting point.

I think it was in the Spring of 1940 that Stalin ordered the execution of nearly 30,000 Poles - by shooting in the head.

Definitely not choirboys.

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"Stand by to pull me out of the seat if I get hit" - Guy Gibson

If you want to use the agument that what the Russians did to the Germans was in some way reenge, it can be reversed.

There are a number of acounts of Grman soldiers being murdered and bodies mutelated from the frst days of the German attack.

And i have heard it aruged that the simple act of invasion justifys what the Communitsts did. Though of course this ignores the Russian invasion of Poland and Finland.

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'England confides that every man will do his duty' Nelson
'I'm a Norfolk man, and glory in being so' Nelson

Proud to be a GRUNT

From: http://www2.h-net.msu.edu/~german/gt...u-english.html
A German Field Marshal Instructs the Wehrmacht on Its Role in the Soviet Union

The document below is, with minor alterations for clarity's sake, the official English-language translation of the original German document as presented in evidence at the Nuremberg military tribunals assembled in order to try suspected war criminals. The original German document is also available. (source: John Mendelsohn, ed., The Holocaust: Selected Documents in Eighteen Volumes. Vol. 10: The Einsatzgruppen or Murder Commandos [New York: Garland, 1982], pp. 11-12])

In this document, Field Marshal Walter von Reichenau (1884-1942) of the German Sixth Army, in the southern sector of the German assault on the Soviet Union, reacts to reports of the softness of his troops by instilling them with particularly strong statements about their role in suppressing communism and Soviet Jewry. Reichenau was known as one of the most strongly Nazi of the leading German Wehrmacht (army) commanders. He died of a stroke only a few months after he issued this document to his troops. Other German commanders in the Soviet Union also used this document to instruct their troops. For further information, see Omer Bartov, Hitler's Army: Soldiers, Nazis, and War in the Third Reich (New York: Oxford University Press, 1991), pp. 129-30.

Translation of Document No. NOKW-309 Continued Copy AOK 6
Sect. Ia-File No. 7
Army H.Qu., 10 October 1941

Subject: Conduct of Troops in Eastern Territories.

Regarding the conduct of troops towards the bolshevistic system, vague ideas are still prevalent in many cases. The most essential aim of war against the Jewish-bolshevistic system is a complete destruction of their means of power and the elimination of Asiatic influence from the European culture. In this connection the troops are facing tasks which exceed the one-sided routine of soldiering. The soldier in the Eastern territories is not merely a fighter according to the rules of the art of war but also a bearer of ruthless national ideology and the avenger of bestialities which have been inflicted upon German and racially related nations.

Therefore the soldier must have full understanding for the necessity of a severe but just revenge on subhuman Jewry. The Army has to aim at another purpose, i.e. the annihilation of revolts in hinterland, which, as experience proves, have always been caused by Jews.

The combating of the enemy behind the front line is still not being taken seriously enough. Treacherous, cruel partisans and degenerate women are still being made prisoners-of-war and guerilla fighters dressed partly in uniform or plain clothes and vagabonds are still being treated as proper soldiers, and sent to prisoner-of-war camps. In fact, captured Russian officers talk even mockingly about Soviet agents moving openly about the roads and very often eating at German field kitchens. Such an attitude of the troops can only be explained by complete thoughtlessness, so it is now high time for the commanders to clarify the meaning of the pressing struggle.

The feeding of the natives and of prisoners-