Nazi war criminals warned not to relax

The_Historian · #1 (**permalink**) November 28th, 2007, 01:56 AM

Last of the Nazi war criminals are warned: We're still after you | the Daily Mail

tikilal · #2 (**permalink**) November 28th, 2007, 07:33 PM

First I dont think that Nazis are innocent.

Second come on the war has been over for 62 years. Either start rounding up everyone from every nation that did bad things or let it go. Sorry but I had to say that.

bigfun · #3 (**permalink**) November 28th, 2007, 08:02 PM

well I understand your point, but I think that these people have to be held accountable for what they did, simply because time has gone by doesn't mean we should give them a free pass! My family suffered under the tyranny of men like this, and I for one say prosecute them, I don't care if they are 110 years old.
That is the angry side of me. The compassionate side of me agrees with you tik! I know it's a bit contradictory, but there you go! I don't know what the answer is, I'm sure these guys will fight extradition until they're dead, and then what have we gained. I guess at the least we have made what remainder of their lives miserable.

I can live with that, they did worse.

Sloniksp · #4 (**permalink**) November 28th, 2007, 09:37 PM

5 more years and there will be no one left.....

chocapic · #5 (**permalink**) November 29th, 2007, 08:46 AM

I don't know why some bastards would be rewarded, because they've been good at hiding themselves, like the unassuming cowards they are.

tikilal · #6 (**permalink**) November 29th, 2007, 03:34 PM

No one is ever rewarded for doing evil. God will make sure of that.

But to further my point. Lets start prosecuting Russian comanders who shot thousands of Poles, encurageed rape and murder in Germany, not to mention keeping German POWs in prision for more thatn 25 years after the war was over. If this is not enough, we can go after the French who murdered thousands of people who had colaborated with the Germans. Then there are the Americans who dropped nuclear weapons (WMDs) and firebombed cities. Dont forget the Japanese who murdered thousands of POWs. We never even prosecuted the Emporer for conspiring to make War. There are hundreds if not thousands out there that we can go after and this just one war.

Sturmkreuz · #7 (**permalink**) November 29th, 2007, 04:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tikilal

No one is ever rewarded for doing evil. God will make sure of that.

But to further my point. Lets start prosecuting Russian comanders who shot thousands of Poles, encurageed rape and murder in Germany, not to mention keeping German POWs in prision for more thatn 25 years after the war was over. If this is not enough, we can go after the French who murdered thousands of people who had colaborated with the Germans. Then there are the Americans who dropped nuclear weapons (WMDs) and firebombed cities. Dont forget the Japanese who murdered thousands of POWs. We never even prosecuted the Emporer for conspiring to make War. There are hundreds if not thousands out there that we can go after and this just one war.

Well said,

He's right, there are plenty of others who could be prosecuted too than the Nazis, they should first deal with the terrorist too who are terrifying the entire world.

chocapic · #8 (**permalink**) November 29th, 2007, 04:41 PM

So, if you can't judge all alleged criminals, either because some are very good at hiding themselves, or some are not being prosecuted, or because you wait for god or santa claus to do the job, then you can't judge any of them ?

Maybe they could at least face their judges, just to see what this defense is worth

I think you did not take the time to read the link, please check who you are talking about :

The most wanted is Alois Brunner, 95, who is said to live in Syria.
The right-hand-man of Holocaust organiser Adolf Eichmann, he invented the mobile gas vans used to kill tens of thousands of Jews.

Number two on the list is Dr Aribert Heim, 93, the former doctor of the Mauthausen camp in Austria. Known as Dr Death, Heim injected prisoners with lethal drugs and carried out operations without anaesthetic "because he was bored".
It is thought he is in Chile.

Third is John Demjanjuk, 87, a camp guard suspected of pushing tens of thousands of Jews into gas chambers at Treblinka. He is wanted by Ukraine but is fighting extradition from the U.S..

Fourth is Milivoj Asner, 94, the former Nazi police chief of Croatia, responsible for the slaughter of Jews, gipsies and resistance fighters.
He lives in Austria but is wanted by Croatia for war crimes.

Fifth is Sandor Kepiro, 93, a Hungarian Nazi police executive who massacred civilians in Yugoslavia and helped round up 400,000 Hungarian Jews sent to die in Auschwitz in 1944.
Serbia wants him deported from Budapest.

Sixth is Karoly Zentai, 85, another official in Hungary who organised the round-up of the Jews.
He lives in Australia and is fighting extradition to Hungary.

Seventh is Allgimantas Dailide, 86, a Lithuanian Nazi responsible for rounding up Jews before they were shipped off for extermination.
He lives in Germany.

Eighth is Harry Mannil, 87, an Estonian thought to be in hiding in Venezuela.
He is wanted for personally murdering 100 Jews and rounding up thousands of others.

Do you seriously think these men do not deserve a trial ?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sturmkreuz

He's right, there are plenty of others who could be prosecuted too than the Nazis, they should first deal with the terrorist too who are terrifying the entire world.

Please tell me who is "they" who have such a small amount of time in their hands, that "they" have to choose between judging Alois Brunner or Ben Laden ?

Sturmkreuz · #9 (**permalink**) November 29th, 2007, 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chocapic

So, if you can't judge all alleged criminals, either because some are very good at hiding themselves, or some are not being prosecuted, or because you wait for god or santa claus to do the job, then you can't judge any of them ?

Maybe they could at least face their judges, just to see what this defense is worth

I think you did not take the time to read the link, please check who you are talking about :

The most wanted is Alois Brunner, 95, who is said to live in Syria.
The right-hand-man of Holocaust organiser Adolf Eichmann, he invented the mobile gas vans used to kill tens of thousands of Jews.

Number two on the list is Dr Aribert Heim, 93, the former doctor of the Mauthausen camp in Austria. Known as Dr Death, Heim injected prisoners with lethal drugs and carried out operations without anaesthetic "because he was bored".
It is thought he is in Chile.

Third is John Demjanjuk, 87, a camp guard suspected of pushing tens of thousands of Jews into gas chambers at Treblinka. He is wanted by Ukraine but is fighting extradition from the U.S..

Fourth is Milivoj Asner, 94, the former Nazi police chief of Croatia, responsible for the slaughter of Jews, gipsies and resistance fighters.
He lives in Austria but is wanted by Croatia for war crimes.

Fifth is Sandor Kepiro, 93, a Hungarian Nazi police executive who massacred civilians in Yugoslavia and helped round up 400,000 Hungarian Jews sent to die in Auschwitz in 1944.
Serbia wants him deported from Budapest.

Sixth is Karoly Zentai, 85, another official in Hungary who organised the round-up of the Jews.
He lives in Australia and is fighting extradition to Hungary.

Seventh is Allgimantas Dailide, 86, a Lithuanian Nazi responsible for rounding up Jews before they were shipped off for extermination.
He lives in Germany.

Eighth is Harry Mannil, 87, an Estonian thought to be in hiding in Venezuela.
He is wanted for personally murdering 100 Jews and rounding up thousands of others.

Do you seriously think these men do not deserve a trial ?

Please tell me who is "they" who have such a small amount of time in their hands, that "they" have to choose between judging Alois Brunner or Ben Laden ?

I didn't say that they didn't deserved it, did I?
You could read in my text that I said that they not only should prosecuted the Nazis, there are plenty of others too. Why don't prosecuted those who killed the 20 Million people (Stalin's Regime)

Quote:

Soviet Union, Stalin's regime (1924-53): 20 000 000
There are basically two schools of thought when it comes to the number who died at Stalin's hands. There's the "Why doesn't anyone realize that communism is the absolutely worst thing ever to hit the human race, without exception, even worse than both world wars, the slave trade and bubonic plague all put together?" school, and there's the "Come on, stop exaggerating. The truth is horrifying enough without you pulling numbers out of thin air" school. The two schools are generally associated with the right and left wings of the political spectrum, and they often accuse each other of being blinded by prejudice, stubbornly refusing to admit the truth, and maybe even having a hidden agenda. Also, both sides claim that recent access to former Soviet archives has proven that their side is right.

Here are a few illustrative estimates from the Big Numbers school:
Adler, N., Victims of Soviet Terror, 1993 cites these:
Chistyakovoy, V. (Neva, no.10): 20 million killed during the 1930s.

Dyadkin, I.G. (Demograficheskaya statistika neyestestvennoy smertnosti v SSSR 1918-1956 ): 56 to 62 million "unnatural deaths" for the USSR overall, with 34 to 49 million under Stalin.

Gold, John.: 50-60 million.

Davies, Norman (Europe A History, 1998): c. 50 million killed 1924-53, excluding WW2 war losses. This would divide (more or less) into 33M pre-war and 17M after 1939.

Rummel, 1990: 61,911,000 democides in the USSR 1917-87, of which 51,755,000 occurred during the Stalin years. This divides up into:
1923-29: 2,200,000 (plus 1M non-democidal famine deaths)

1929-39: 15,785,000 (plus 2M non-democidal famine)

1939-45: 18,157,000

1946-54: 15,613,000 (plus 333,000 non-democidal famine)

TOTAL: 51,755,000 democides and 3,333,000 non-demo. famine

William Cockerham, Health and Social Change in Russia and Eastern Europe: 50M+

Wallechinsky: 13M (1930-32) + 7M (1934-38)
Cited by Wallechinsky:
Medvedev, Roy (Let History Judge): 40 million.

Solzhenitsyn, Aleksandr: 60 million.

MEDIAN: 51 million for the entire Stalin Era; 20M during the 1930s.

And from the Lower Numbers school:
Nove, Alec ("Victims of Stalinism: How Many?" in J. Arch Getty (ed.) Stalinist Terror: New Perspectives, 1993): 9,500,000 "surplus deaths" during the 1930s.

Cited in Nove:
Maksudov, S. (Poteri naseleniya SSSR, 1989): 9.8 million abnormal deaths between 1926 and 1937.

Tsaplin, V.V. ("Statistika zherty naseleniya v 30e gody" 1989): 6,600,000 deaths (hunger, camps and prisons) between the 1926 and 1937 censuses.

Dugin, A. ("Stalinizm: legendy i fakty" 1989): 642,980 counterrevolutionaries shot 1921-53.

Muskovsky Novosti (4 March 1990): 786,098 state prisoners shot, 1931-53.

Gordon, A. (What Happened in That Time?, 1989, cited in Adler, N., Victims of Soviet Terror, 1993): 8-9 million during the 1930s.

Ponton, G. (The Soviet Era, 1994): cites an 1990 article by Milne, et al., that excess deaths 1926-39 were likely 3.5 million and at most 8 million.

MEDIAN: 8.5 Million during the 1930s.

As you can see, there's no easy compromise between the two schools. The Big Numbers are so high that picking the midpoint between the two schools would still give us a Big Number. It may appear to be a rather pointless argument -- whether it's fifteen or fifty million, it's still a huge number of killings -- but keep in mind that the population of the Soviet Union was 164 million in 1937, so the upper estimates accuse Stalin of killing nearly 1 out of every 3 of his people, an extremely Polpotian level of savagery. The lower numbers, on the other hand, leave Stalin with plenty of people still alive to fight off the German invasion.

Although it's too early to be taking sides with absolute certainty, a consensus seems to be forming around a death toll of 20 million. This would adequately account for all documented nastiness without straining credulity:
In The Great Terror (1969), Robert Conquest suggested that the overall death toll was 20 million at minimum -- and very likely 50% higher, or 30 million. This would divide roughly as follows: 7M in 1930-36; 3M in 1937-38; 10M in 1939-53. By the time he wrote The Great Terror: A Re-assessment (1992), Conquest was much more confident that 20 million was the likeliest death toll.

Britannica, "Stalinism": 20M died in camps, of famine, executions, etc., citing Medvedev

Brzezinski: 20-25 million, dividing roughly as follows: 7M destroying the peasantry; 12M in labor camps; 1M excuted during and after WW2.

Daniel Chirot:
"Lowest credible" estimate: 20M

"Highest": 40M

Citing:
Conquest: 20M

Antonov-Ovseyenko: 30M

Medvedev: 40M

Courtois, Stephane, Black Book of Communism (Le Livre Noir du Communism): 20M for the whole history of Soviet Union, 1917-91.
Essay by Nicolas Werth: 15M

[Ironic observation: The Black Book of Communism seems to vote for Hitler as the answer to the question of who's worse, Hitler (25M) or Stalin (20M).]

John Heidenrich, How to Prevent Genocide: A Guide for Policymakers, Scholars, and the Concerned Citizen (2001): 20M, incl.
Kulaks: 7M

Gulag: 12M

Purge: 1.2M (minus 50,000 survivors)

Adam Hochschild, The Unquiet Ghost: Russians Remember Stalin: directly responsible for 20 million deaths.

Tina Rosenberg, The Haunted Land: Facing Europes Ghosts After Communism (1995): upwards of 25M

Time Magazine (13 April 1998): 15-20 million.

AVERAGE: Of the 17 estimates of the total number of victims of Stalin, the median is 30 million.
Famine, 1926-38
Richard Overy, Russia's War (1997): 4.2M in Ukraine + 1.7M in Kazakhstan

Green, Barbara ("Stalinist Terror and the Question of Genocide: the Great Famine" in Rosenbaum, Is the Holocaust Unique?) cites these sources for the number who died in the famine:
Nove: 3.1-3.2M in Ukraine, 1933

Maksudov: 4.4M in Ukraine, 1927-38

Mace: 5-7M in Ukraine

Osokin: 3.35M in USSR, 1933

Wheatcraft: 4-5M in USSR, 1932-33

Conquest:
Total, USSR, 1926-37: 11M

1932-33: 7M

Ukraine: 5M

They = Al Quada and side groups and more.. I used the term terrorists

Sloniksp · #10 (**permalink**) November 29th, 2007, 06:27 PM

The difference between Hitler and Stalin is that Hitler was responsible for over 40 million deaths in dozens of countries all across Europe which he had invaded starting a world war in less then 10 years.

Stalin massacred 20 million of his own people.

How many people died in the Soviet Union after Stalin's death?

Also the reason why the German POW's were kept in Russia for so long was because they were put to work rebuilding the country which they had destroyed. As for the treatment of these POW's, can you guys proved some figures for German POW's losses in Russian and Allied hands?

Yes BOTH men were monsters, but more good came out of Stalin's regime.

Za Rodinu · #11 (**permalink**) November 29th, 2007, 06:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sloniksp

The difference between Hitler and Stalin is that Hitler was responsible for over 40 million deaths in dozens of countries all across Europe which he had invaded starting a world war in less then 10 years.

Stalin massacred 20 million of his own people.

That's the point. One provoked an aggressive war and went on to kill a large number of other countries citizens, military and civilians, and went on to a policy of genocide against more than one ethnic group.

The other was an internal affair.

So if you want to rant for the pleasure of ranting, please choose another forum, this one is dedicated to WW2 affairs.

Sloniksp · #12 (**permalink**) November 29th, 2007, 06:53 PM

Me? Rant?

IMPOSSIBLE!

bigfun · #13 (**permalink**) November 29th, 2007, 06:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sloniksp

The difference between Hitler and Stalin is that Hitler was responsible for over 40 million deaths in dozens of countries all across Europe which he had invaded starting a world war in less then 10 years.

Stalin massacred 20 million of his own people.

How many people died in the Soviet Union after Stalin's death?

Also the reason why the German POW's were kept in Russia for so long was because they were put to work rebuilding the country which they had destroyed. As for the treatment of these POW's, can you guys proved some figures for German POW's losses in Russian and Allied hands?

Yes BOTH men were monsters, but more good came out of Stalin's regime.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Za Rodinu

That's the point. One provoked an aggressive war and went on to kill a large number of other countries citizens, military and civilians, and went on to a policy of genocide against more than one ethnic group.

The other was an internal affair.

So if you want to rant for the pleasure of ranting, please choose another forum, this one is dedicated to WW2 affairs.

Sturm, Choco, Tik............I'm pretty sure that's called getting schooled!!

chocapic · #14 (**permalink**) November 29th, 2007, 06:58 PM

Sturmkreuz you said that other people should be judged first, which translates as these nazis don't have to be judged unless some other people are judged before.

You said :

"He's right, there are plenty of others who could be prosecuted too than the Nazis, they should first deal with the terrorist too who are terrifying the entire world."

So I will ask you, again, who are the "THEY" above, who have such a small amount of time in their hands, that "they" have to choose between judging Alois Brunner or Ben Laden first ?

I ask because I often found out in WWII conversations, that people who cared alot to say "Stalin was no better" (which can be discussed if you have time to waste on such a silly question) when Nazi crimes are discussed, often had some smelly afterthougts

Sturmkreuz · #15 (**permalink**) November 29th, 2007, 07:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chocapic

Sturmkreuz you said that other people should be judged first, which translates as these nazis don't have to be judged unless some other people are judged before.

You said :

"He's right, there are plenty of others who could be prosecuted too than the Nazis, they should first deal with the terrorist too who are terrifying the entire world."

So I will ask you, again, who are the "THEY" above, who have such a small amount of time in their hands, that "they" have to choose between judging Alois Brunner or Ben Laden first ?

I ask because I often found out in WWII conversations, that people who cared alot to say "Stalin was no better" (which can be discussed if you have time to waste on such a silly question) when Nazi crimes are discussed, often had some smelly afterthougts

Now I get you, no I ment that (they/we) should first deal with the terrorist of this day who are terrifying the world, who are doing attacks, are planning attack, which are killing thousands of innocent people (like wtc, trainbombing..). They're more dangerous than a 90-year-old Nazi.

Za Rodinu · #16 (**permalink**) November 29th, 2007, 09:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigfun

Sturm, Choco, Tik............I'm pretty sure that's called getting schooled!!

To what effect?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sturmkreuz

Now I get you, no I ment that (they/we) should first deal with the terrorist of this day who are terrifying the world, who are doing attacks, are planning attack, which are killing thousands of innocent people (like wtc, trainbombing..). They're more dangerous than a 90-year-old Nazi.

Probably, but this is a WW2 forum! Get it? Or don't get it?