Germany Confronts Holocaust Legacy Anew
Source: NYT (1-29-08)
Most countries celebrate the best in their pasts. Germany unrelentingly promotes its worst.

The enormous Holocaust memorial that dominates a chunk of central Berlin was completed only after years of debate. But the building of monuments to the Nazi disgrace continues unabated.

On Monday, Germany’s minister of culture, Bernd Neumann, announced that construction could begin in Berlin on two monuments: one near the Reichstag, to the murdered Gypsies, known here as the Sinti and the Roma; and another not far from the Brandenburg Gate, to gays and lesbians killed in the Holocaust.


History News Network

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For the first time I have seen "History" at close quarters,and I know that its actual process is very different from what is presented to Posterity. - WWI General Max Hoffman

I have made several friends of Germans, and i can tell you they are sick and tired of having the whole Holocaust thrown in their faces, the whole reliving the Holocaust year in and year out for time immemorial has a unintended backlash, i have asked them what do they think about as they are reminded about the Holocaust and the one consistent thought is that they dislike the Jews, some feel like that they are being punnished for the sins of the fathers, also they feel like second class citizens. I say it is time for Germay to stop being anchored to the past and go forth with a new future.

This time the memorials aren't for the Jews.

"one near the Reichstag, to the murdered Gypsies, known here as the Sinti and the Roma; and another not far from the Brandenburg Gate, to gays and lesbians killed in the Holocaust."

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For the first time I have seen "History" at close quarters,and I know that its actual process is very different from what is presented to Posterity. - WWI General Max Hoffman

I agree with VRs friend. I think it's about time that the German people shuck off the past. It is the past, not what the PC holocaust industry proclaims it to be, the now and forever.

Really? The "pc holocaust industry"? A denier and revisionist term BTW.So tell me what and how do they profit from the memorials?The Gypsies and others have long be ignored over the years. It's about time that they have been remembered and acknowledged. In addition other countries have built memorials to them too.And it looks like they wont forget what happened either. It wasn't all about the Jews.

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For the first time I have seen "History" at close quarters,and I know that its actual process is very different from what is presented to Posterity. - WWI General Max Hoffman

Estonia erects monument to Gypsy victims of Nazi executions
Source: RIA Novosti (Moscow) (5-7-07)

TALLINN, Estonia -- A monument to Gypsies murdered in a Nazi death camp near Tallinn during WWII has been unveiled in Estonia, local TV said.

Estonian TV said Sunday it took the country's Gypsy community six years to find a site and collect money for the monument to about 2,000 Gypsies, who were executed in Kalevi-Lijva together with 4,000 of German, Czechoslovak and Polish Jews during WWII.

http://hnn.us/roundup/entries/38549.html

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For the first time I have seen "History" at close quarters,and I know that its actual process is very different from what is presented to Posterity. - WWI General Max Hoffman

Interesting as it may be but, all of the WWII German Veterans I know, never hated the Jews. However, not that im siding with anyones thought on the subject-or against it for that matter, if I were a younger German living there today, I too would be getting sick and tired of hearing about all the negativity from the past. That certainly does not mean that I would or would not; condone what happened. I am of the opinion that any war criminals cought from now till???? should rightly so-be punished.

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Lost are only those, who abandon themselves) Hans-Ulrich Rudel.

The sad is that the many German folk i have befreinded have said to me that if they show any kind of nationalism and patiriotism to show that they are proud German's but they are labelled Neo Nazis, they do aknowlege the past and are very sorry for what the Nazis did, but they don't need continual reminding 63 years after the event, they want to show how far Germany has come in the 2000's not the past of 1930's and 1940's.

Apparently, if you want to forget the Holocaust, then you still need more reminding.

I'd like you to define "nationalism" and "patriotism" as you see it. We actually might get somewhere if you did.

Because forgetting the past results in future mistakes. As proven *I really don't know how many* times over history. And we all know how good humans are at repeating history.

First off, i haven't forgotten the Holocaust, and i will never forget the Holocaust, and who in the hell are you to say that i need reminding, who died and made you you enforcer of Holocaust History, certainly not by me, that comment is excessively arrogant, if you want to wallow in the Holocaust misery then be my guest, i feel sorry for you as it seems that you are stuck in the past.

Second, If you want the answer look it up in a dictionary.

Third, Humans making mistakes, now there is a bombshell.

Fourth, if we are to have a true Internation Holocaust Day then why don't we be reminded of the tens of millions that were murdered by Stalins Regime, or the 100 or so million murdered by the Chinese Communist Regime, the six million Jews and other undesirable was a crime against huminity but that paled into insignificance to what both Communist regimes did, almost 160 million murdered.

Von Rundstedt,

I understand your German friends concerns where world opinion is concerned. We in the South are hung with a similar yoke where slavery is concerned. Just because some of my ancestors may have owned another human, it is assumed by certain segments of society that I would like to do the same.

I in no way hold any current day German responsible for what happened 60 years ago. I also understand that the sins of the father are visited on his children and this may be the way it is for them. Still doesn't make it right.

As for what you say about the Stalinist deaths, numbers are of less importance. One death is too many.

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Best Regards,
JW

I was responding to Ackers extremely arrogant comment that "I needed reminding" for his and all the uses this forum SBS Australia runs more Holocaust related stories that there ever would be in the US, i always make sure i watch those programmes, i am fully aware of the Holocaust, but i don't need some wet behind the ear upstart jusrt barely out of nappies to tell me "I need reminding".

I again understand your last comment, but when was the last time the whole world commiserated the deaths of the millions of lives murdered by Stalin or Mao, it doesn't, but it should, i would commiserate International Holocaust Day if it recognise those two evil regimes instead of conveniently forgetting then.

Of course Germans of today aren't responsible for crimes in the past (well, most of them, I'm guessing that some SS survived and fled everywhere). I merely find your response off-topic.

This thread is about a Holocaust memorial being erected in favor of the Gypsies gassed, shot, and generally mistreated in some twentieth century event. Not about how you and your friends are sick about having the holocaust stuck in your faces all the time.

I'm glad you dismissed point three. It makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside about human nature.

If you want to have your personal grievances addressed, make a bloody thread. Once again, hijack=terrorism. I have no idea about how you feel, but hijacking a thread is far more arrogant than criticizing the event.

And, as for the definition:

Von, why do you think I asked for your definition of "patriotism" and "nationalism"? We may be on different tracks, here.

For instance, "nationalism". What are you and your friends proud of? A successful reunification of Germany or something?

I'd like if I may quote two posts I made in 2006-Dec-4 in this thread:

End of the war on the Eastern Front?

and also:

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No Rest for the Wicked!

I do wonder, how much longer Germany is going to punish herself for what a bunch of criminals did, there has been many mass murders in our bloody history and yet what the Nazis did seems to put them at the top of the list. I think the main reason for this was it became State policy along with taking photos and filming there criminal work.

There is a flip side to this, why did the Allies not put more of an effort in hunting those war criminals down? Every so often they pop up on the news today and no action taken.

How many more museums and memorials are there going to be? Germany paid the price for following a mad man who took them to Hell. I'm not defending these bunch of criminals as I hold the same point as Churchill did we should of shot them all but that was not the case, Germany today can not keep living in the past or made to.

Germany has faced up to what Hitler and the Nazis did in the Holocaust which is now part of there bloody history, mankind can not move forward if the pass controls the present. There are plenty of books on the subject for people to read along with documentary's and so forth.

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Regards, Richard


"Open channel D"

I entirely agree. More than time for Germany to lose its schackles to this brief episode and shine as the beacon of Civilization, Culture and Democracy it already is and has been for a long time.

Oh, Richard, please... read more into the subject of the Allies (all of them) helping Nazis get away for their own convenience, either for their scientific value or for other reasons.

Nazi Hunter Simon Wiesenthal Dies at 96

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No Rest for the Wicked!

Za, me old fruit and nut.

I finished reading the book on Eichmann and during the 50's and 60's the Allies lost interest as Russia was the new nasty man of Europe and not forgetting the Cuban missile crisis as well. To a point Israel did as well due to there problems on there door step so to speak of which took me by surprise, it was the work of Simon Wiesenthal who made the effort to keep hunting these Nazi criminals down.

On saying that, yes even I can see major events over took the hunting down of the Nazis.

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Regards, Richard


"Open channel D"

Amazing how differently WWII countries handle their history. Just compare:
- Germany (pretty much full exposure)
- Japan (mostly denial and evasion)
- Austria (low WWII-profile so people forgot that many top nazis came from Austria)



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Third Reich & WWII in the News - Medals, Battles & Aftermath

I think that one important key concept is to remember and honor those whose death was by the hands of despots of the era. We need to do this without pointing fingers at those people living now whose only "guilt" is that their ancestors lived in the area and could have been responsible, either directly or indirectly. I would no more hold today's Germans responsible for the Holocaust than I would Martin's or Adam's ancestors for hanging Nathan Hale. I'm not trying to make a moral equivalency, just trying to show the absudity of condemning those who were not even alive at the time the atrocities occured.

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Best Regards,
JW