NEVER FORGET

I respect you for saying that CrazyD, you are indeed right that we should not blame people for the actions of their fathers. However, I feel very passionateley about what the Japanese did and it is hard to forgive, even though I do not hate the Japanese.
But we have forgiven the Germans over the mistreatment of the Jews (with the exception of a very few people)
We have forgiven the Russian atrocities of the war.
The Japanese have forgiven the Americans for dropping the bomb.
So why is it that we do not forgive the Japanese over the mistreatment of POWs?

Thankyou CrazyD, I think you have made an impact

However Crazy, when you quoted Nip it is simply slang for Japanese (i do not know the origin so I do not know whether it is offensive or not)

Jap, Nip = Japanese
Brit, Limey, Tommy = British
Mick = Irish
Yank, GI = American
Kraut, Jerry = German
etc.

Jet

 

Nice stuff, Jet.
And I should clarify something- I DO NOT excuse IN ANY WAY what the Japanese did, or for that matter, any atrocities committed during war. I don't want to give the impression that I'm saying that that stuff is OK- no way. And I completely agree with your premise- it is very hard in some cases to forgive. Especially when you do look at something like the concentration camps or the Batann death march. Things like that are very hard to forgive...

That is a VERY interesting question you raise. In fact, I do think it is something of a problem in studies of WW2. We VERY often read about the "barbaric", "atrocious", "inhuman" Japanese... and yet when we read about the germans and the SS, we get very little of that.


On the Nip thing... I was under the impression that "Nip" was meant to be a derogatory (insulting) term. I could be wrong on this...
But regardless of wether or not Nip is meant as an insult... my point was more to the context. If someone asks why one would forgive "the Nips"- obviously there is a rather large bias against the Japanese there.
Think about it this way- if we had a Japanese veteran as part of these forums... would you be comfortable asking him about "the Nips"?

I mean, how often do we see someone post
"So why do you guys think the Krauts lost the war?"

Again, though, I think Jet raises the most interesting aspect of this whole discussion...

Food for thought...

 

I SHALL NEVER FORGET AND NEVER FORGIVE!!!

 

I SHALL NEVER FORGET AND NEVER FORGIVE!!! Although it was a little extreme to force all the Japanese on the West Coast into detention centers.

 

Japan = Nippon
Jap = Nip

Offensive? I do not think so. It is simply an abbrevation of their national Identity (ie Japanese/ Nipponese)

As for Kraut, Wap, Tojo, Ami, Yank, Limey, Tommy, Ivan

not disrespectful either.

 

OK. I am tired of reading so much stupidity. Except for Crazy's posts, I found nearly the rest very umpolite, unreasonable and uncivilised. Very good to have good Christians, religiuos or moral men willing to forgive and not to 'hate'... Now I see why wars happen. Because of ignorant people who cannot forgive (not FORGET for the 100th time) that did bad things in the past. Not forgiving is the first step to hate and hate is the first step to war and death.

If veterans who lived that have already forgave their enemies for killing their buddies and making them suffer, I guess it is totally idiotic to even read statements like "Never forget, never forgive", and much more when who says it is a person who hadn't been born yet.

I am too ashamed of reading what I read: post that show hate, ignorance, racism and rencour... I thought you guys thought and analised things more carefully.

[ 19. May 2003, 05:20 PM: Message edited by: General der Infanterie Friedrich H ]

 

BINGO!

Crazy hit the bull's eye.

We almost treat WW II vets with the utmost respect here, no matter if they are U.S., Briish, German, even SS.

So look into the mirror and ask yourself why a Japanese vet might deserve any less respect from you compared to a German, Italian, whatever vet.

Because you judge on him. Most possible an unjustified judgement.

I personally believe that the vast majority of Japanese soldiers could imagine better things than becoming a soldier and fight for thier country. And the aspect of being mutilated after they fell (ear "souverniers" etc.) wouldn't be a nice aspect to feel more human with my enemy, at least not to me.

All this de-huminazing and lumping up all individuals in one pot full of prejudices is a necessary precondition to go to war and kill the nice little guy hundreds yards away from you. I bet 99% of the Japanese soldiers and 99% of the U.S. soldiers would have shared a beer and had some good laughs if the had met in a Bar in Tokyo or New York.

Instead the one cut off the head of POW's while the other made moneybags out of dead Japanese testicles.

Ce la guerre.

 

Manneheim, I have known people to find the terms Yank, Limey and Kraut offensive, I can see why 'Nip' would be seen as offensive too. It is not the word in itself so much as the connotations it has gained over the years. A similar comparison would be 'negro', many find it offensive but it just means 'one who is black', the word has gained an offensive meaning due to generations of miss use.

 

What specific harm did "the" Japanese to you personally that you will never "forget and forgive" them?

Selling you a crappy Mazda?

 

Im sorry Stefan the word you are looking for there is Nigger.

Which of course is an outdated term meaning 'a lower class of colored people'

Also, just a side note, more blacks use that word than whites here in America.

Just to avoid this taking over the thread, ill start a new one on slang nicknames for different factions


CvM

 

Andy: BRAVO!!!!! on your last post!

 

Friedriche, the British vetrans have certainly not forgiven or forgotten I hope you are not initmiating that they should because you have a differeng view?

They have a right to harobor ill feeling, in a nice world all is roses and nice people, however its not now or ever has been a nice world. These vetrans have the right to think how they like and act in a commesrumate manner, they were there, they experienced it first hand, they not you and I or any one on these forums has the right to dictate to others on here or elswhere that it was 60 years ago and lets live and let live, thats not our choice.

 

It might be an idea to mail the British Far East Prisoners of War Society with some of the forgive and forget views that are being expressed here, and the alternate view bien theown at some for not agreeing as racist is just ridiculous.

Id suggest you ask them for their views and comments on some of the statements in this thread.

Emotional blakmail with the mention of racism is not welcome.

 

Well said Andy.

Also, I would not disrespect a Japanese ww2 vet had one decided to ever visit here and would not ask him anything contraversial like: "Did you ever kill an allied POW with your Samurai Sword because he had collapsed due to no food and no water?

I would ask him things like what unit he served in and how he felt about the war--things like that.

But still--I will never forgive them for the sneak attack on Pearl Harbor--the Bataan Death March and their mal treatment of any POWs. I will also never forget.

To me, forgiving and ESPECIALLY forgetting--is a bigtime slap into all living vets faces. I would try to put myself into their shoes and if my actions went un-appreciated and were forgotten, I too would feel insulted~~~OR~~~ as in the case of so many ww2 German Vets--Stabbed in the back.

You know--even as an American stranger--to be invited to attend the U 181 vets reunion. I could see the sadness in these mens faces when the subject came up of how they were being thought of and treated by younger Germans.

I could also "see" what Dieter H. and Gunther B. were thinking when they did start thinking about that and also they in thinking that they are ((or that many of them fell)) as if non-Germans appreciate tham more than their own Countrymen do.

And of course, I do NOT speak for all but, this is what I got from watching these vets, listening to thee vets, and asking them questions.

 

What specific harm did "the" Japanese to you personally that you will never "forget and forgive" them?

Selling you a crappy Mazda? </font>[/QUOTE]No, Herr Andy, this is not the case. I shall never forgive the Japanese SOLDIERS who commited these atrocities but I have forgiven the people. I only hold a grudge against soldiers who had FUN, yes FUN, mutilating, raping, pilaging, burning, and commiting dozens of other atrocities. As to the national insult thing, I find no offensive quality to being called a "Yank". I like it. Sounds cool. But in any case, no i would not be comftorable calling a Japanese veteran a "nip" if he were to post here.

 

All the stereo-typing here gets me to thinking about U.S. military integration which occured in 1951. I am not exactly sure how long the process took in the Active duty military but I believe that full scale integration of Reserve and National Guard units did not come into full swing, especially in the Soth, until the late 60's. A few days ago I was looking at a class-book of an old friend of mine who served in the 31st Dixie Division (the Division fought in ww2 IN THE Pacific in '45) from Ft. McClellon, Alabama in 1956. I was surprised to see from the pictures within that during parade formations the U.S. flag was being flown with the Division flag, the Alabama State flag, the Mississippi state flag (Which still has the Stars and Bars in it to this day/only state flag left in the country like this if I am not mistaken) and finally, yes you guessed it, the Confederate battle flag! Dress uniforms even had Confederate flag pins on the shoulders. Not as a part of another thing but by themselves, just the flags! Needless to say there were no African Americans in that unit. I myself have different opinions on the "Flag issue" which consumes a lot of media time in the South but I didn't know that this thing took so long to die so hard!

 

Some interesting thoughts... and some not so...


Interesting how CvM can't seem to respond to wether or not he would call a german veteran a "kraut" to his face.

I must say, this entire thread startles me a bit. This forum is ususally free form this kind of useless garbage.

But.. at least some really interesting discussion comes from it.

Carl- when you say "You will not forgive" the Japanese for Pearl Harbor, etc.- could you clarify that a bit? I would imagine that you don't hold those events against all the Japanese- so to you, what exactly does not forgive mean? Just curious- especially since I know you've spoken to many more vets than myself.
And maybe a follow up question- have you ever spoken to any vets about the whole idea of "forgive and forget"? I'd be interested in hearing how a vet would respond to this...

(How a vet would respond to the forgive and forget thing, not how a vet would respond to some of the aforementioned slurs!)

 

Interesting... Don't mean to SPAM at all here, gents...

But I went through my usual routine- after checking the forums, I checked a couple newspapers.
found this on NYTimes- related to topic.

Calif. Rep's Internment Remarks Draw Fire
By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS

Filed at 9:37 a.m. ET

SACRAMENTO, Calif. (AP) -- The California Assembly on Monday called for Rep. Howard Coble to resign as chair of a key House subcommittee because of his comments about the internment of Japanese-Americans during World War II.

During a Feb. 4 radio show, Coble appeared to justify the internment by saying it was for Japanese-Americans' own protection. The North Carolina Republican heads the House Subcommittee on Crime, Terrorism and Homeland Security.
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``We were at war,'' Coble said. ``For many of these Japanese-Americans, it wasn't safe for them to be on the street.''

Two of the 10 internment camps were in southeast Arkansas, at Rohwer and Jerome.

Monday's vote was 70-0. California is home to more Asians and Japanese than any other state.

Coble's comments amounted to a rewriting of history, said Democratic Assemblyman George Nakano, who was interned at age 6 and released when he was 10.

``I still remember guards' rifles pointing inward to the camp -- not to protect us, but to keep us in,'' he said.

Coble's chief of staff, Missy Branson, said the congressman would have no comment beyond an earlier statement in which he said, ``I regret that many Japanese- and Arab-Americans found my choice of words offensive because that was certainly not my intent.
http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/national/AP-Congressman-Japanese-Internment.html

Still a very sensitive topic, not to mention one that still raises strong feelings.

 

I agree. This thread has really just accomplished nothing. Thiese posts has a lot of rubbish on (and I am partly guilty for it). Everyone is entitled to a view, but WE cannot judge the Japanese, we only know what the veterans have told us. It is the veterans who went through the agony, so they should be the ones to cast the vote. Should we forgive? Should we Forget? Unfortunately my Fathers Uncle who was captured by the Japanese has passed away, unfortunately I cannot ask him if he forgave the Japanese.

I SHALL NEVER FORGET AND NEVER FORGIVE Have the Japanese done anything to you WW2 Buff ?
We have seen pictures, we have seen archive film footage, but the only ones that were there were the POWs. They are the only ones who knew how it felt. The veterans should be the ones to decide.

Jet

 

WW2 Buff, you say that the Japanese had fun raping and pilaging.
Russian Soldiers raped German women.
British and American soldiers (in some cases) commited murder and rape. So did German soldiers. Every side commited an atrocity, some commited small atrocities, others commited large atrocities. So you cannot forgive Japanese soldiers for rape, so you cannot forgive the Allies for atrocities ?
Sure maybe the Allies did not rape huge numbers, how do you know the Japanese did ? To be honest I have never heard of the Japanese raping civillians (with the exception of the Comfort Girls but whether they were forced or not i have no idea).

Jet