The KGM Bismarck

Hi. I don't think it's about the guns, i think its cause of the Germans building the Bismarck over the international law limits,while british ships were built by the rules.
What would of happened if the British broke the law and build all of there ships way over the international limits.British ships would of been just as powerful as the Bismarck was,and Bismarck would never been a threat either! Warm Cheers!

 

Well the Bismark did strike fear into the hearts of every single British officer who served in the Navy and more so in the Atlantic and with that fear came the need to destroy her and so tied up more resources (somwhere to 20 British ship where hunting the Bismark) and yes 2o ships does not sound that great a number but given the amount of shipping being done in those years that is a huge amount of power. Also she had a huge psychological effect on the world (We where soiling our pants) and this had a huge impact on British prestige especially after the Hood blew up (she did not really sink but blew to bits) and increased German Prestige as a result.

Hope this contributes.

Also Prinz Heugen was a big help to Bismak because she served as a "Gun Buddy" (firing her guns is what severly damaged HMS Prince of Wales and not the guns of Bismark)

Thank you

 

Do you have a source for this? It seams unlikely even if we limit it to 1940 (note officers who joined the navy after that would have had little to fear from Bismark. Indeed I suspect the officers on KGV and Rodney for instance had no great fear of Bismark.

That's why POW had to avoid her hull right?

Source PLS. I've seen nothing to indicate Eugen did any signficant damage to POW.

 

Respect, no doubt, but fear????....she wasn't that good.

The only significant advantage the Bismarck class battleship had over either the Nelson class and KGV class of the Royal Navy was its speed, in terms of firepower and armour the British battleships were superior.

 

I consider Bismarck's firepower (which includes fire control and ballistics) to be better than either Rodney or KGV, but not enough better to make much difference.

Her armor scheme has been much debated. She was close to being immune from hits to her vitals, but deficient in other areas. Every ship was a compromise. Again, not enough better or worse to make much of a difference in actual combat.

Incidentally someone on another site has been trying to show that KGV was just as fast as Bismarck. He's convinced me she was not more than about one knot slower. Tirpitz was a little faster than Bismarck.

 

Yess but remember in times of war intel is often wrong or slight over/under exagerated. I was told by one former ww2 naval intel clerk that he was told that Bismark was said to have more gun power than the entire fleet! (of course that is over exagerated and just a rumor) but these thing in war time can be just a damaging to your moral and resolve.

And when Hood was destroyed (remember she was always considered the pride of England) this could have done to things to the British crews. 1 - Strenghten moral and get them going or 2 - Make them feel that if the hood could not do it than they could not.

These are things that I have not source of references but just stories and words that I have been told by actual me serving in the Atlantic theatre. You can choose to ignore what I have or argue it but I would believe those men before any paper information!

 

Amazing story , especially considering the Bismarck actually had less firepower than a number of British Battleships (i.e the Nelson class )

 

One indicator of how "afraid" at least the senior commanders were was the the flight of swordfish that was ready to attack when Rodny and KGV showed up were ordered off. The BBs wanted to put Bismark down on their own.

 

It was probably more of a revenge thing! But all I am really saying is that she caused quite a "Ruckus" in the Atlantic and I hope we can ALL agree on at least that!

 

Indeed not much to dispute there.

 

I doubt the Swordfish would have sunk Bismarck. The small charge on their torpedoes was insufficient to cause serious flooding. How many planes were there? Unless it was a sizeable group, they'd have caused flooding of the torpedo defenses system but litle inboard of that--barring some good luck.

 

Well remember thos Swordfish where really launched to slow her down. The Admiral knew very well that it would be very unlickly that Bismark would be sunk by little torpedos.

But they where just trying to get a good hit so that KGV, Renown, POW or really anybody to get to her.

Now what I never understood is "Why did Prinz Hugen actually break from Bismark?"
And secondly "When Bismark and Hood fought why did the cruisers Norfolk and Suffolk (who where shadowing Bismark) Not open up with the 8inch guns they had or even make any attempt at all to help?

 

Yes, that was directly in accord with the planned use of aircraft in a sea battle. By the time of the final battle, of course, it was no longer relevant.

Bismarck was unable to continue the mission. PE was able to continue the mission. Why would she not do so?

Norfolk and Suffolk were bringing up the rear. How long would it have taken for them to get into gun range? By the time the commander realized he was not going to receive an order to attack, it may have been too late. What would they have accomplished anyway?

 

During the night before the battle the Suffolk and Norfolk had been shadowing the German formation. Due to a snowstorm causing problems with the radar set the commanders were afraid of the German formation reversing course and heading straight at them. At some point during the night on board Suffolk, a lookout reported a large shadow closing from the south. The RN cruisers then reversed course. This would eventually take them out of the battle. Originally the plan had been for the Suffolk and Norfolk to engage the PE while Hood and PoW dealt with the Bismark. During the loss of radar contact with the German formation the Bismark and PE switched positions in the formation. This switch was caused by the fact that Bismark had fired on the Norfolk the previous day. When she fired her main guns her forward radar had been damaged leaving her only with aft radar coverage, so PE took the lead with better radar. The change of position between the PE and Bismark put the RN cruisers even further out of position. With smaller guns it would be necessary for the cruisers to get closer than what PoW and Hood engaged from. Hope this helps

 

It does thanks I had always wondered why... now I know! I have only one more question, Why would the British deploy the Renown to the region? Was she not older than anyother vessel at the time. I thought she was WW1 ship.

 

Renown was younger than a number of British battleships in service at the time: Queen Elizabeth, Valiant, Warspite, Malaya, Royal Sovereign, Revenge, and Barham. This doesn't mean she was more powerful than they.

 

IIRC, she was a part of Froce H at this time moving north from Gibralter. I believe the intent was to keep the Bismark out of range of German air support.

 

Oh I was always told she was older... Oops I guess this is why this site is good for me so i can get real facts!

Thanks folks!

 

Two things. First point is regarding the "overrated Bismarck" discussion. A documentary I saw recently mentioned that the design of Bismarck and Tirpitz was such that the guns could easily be replaced at a future date if/when Germany developed 16 or 18 inch guns of comparable quality to their 15 inch guns. This would have turned the ships into the force they were intended to be. I can't substantiate these comments as I forget which documentay I heard this on. I will endeavour to find out and try to quote the documentary, but would be interested to know if anyone else is aware of this and/or what difference if any this would make to peoples opinion of both ships.

Second point. I appear unable to access page 6 of this thread!!!!! Any help or explanation would be appreciated!!!

 

I've had the same experience of trying to get to the last page of a thread when it appears, in fact, that the server is showing the existence of a page that doesn't exist. At this time, there is no page 6, regardless of the "page 5 of 6" notation.
There was never any thought given to rearming Bismarck or Tirpitz with larger guns. It would not have been possible. It may be that someone is confusing this with the claim that Scharnhorst and Gneisenau (the battleships completed just before Bismarck) were designed to be rearmed with the same 15in guns that Bismarck carried. But that claim is also wrong. Here's the actual story: after Scharnhorst was designed, it was noticed that Bismarck's twin 38cm guns would fit nicely atop the structure for Scharnhorst's 28cm triples. Gneisenau actually began the conversion process during the war while under repair for serious war damage. The operation involved extensive changes--they even had to lengthen the ship by 10m--so it definitely wasn't something they planned for during the design phase.