60th Anniversary of Warsaw Uprisng

This thread seems to be a continuance of the one Otto has just closed....

In defference to Sanchev, he has made me look again at Polands contribution in ww2, ok his stance can be eskewed slightly but we have seen that many times on here, but some of his basic facts are correct, I'll disagree with him on the Polish resistance vis a vis the Yugoslavian model.

My knowledge on ww2 is more in tune and interest lies with political side of the war, its causes, its effects, and the leaders throughout.

I have a great interest in the rest of course, but my interest in Polands efforts is probably similar to many others on here, beginning with the start of the war, and Polands subsequent efforts with the allies in all other theatres, including the Ghetto uprising etc.

But Stanchev has awakened an interest in me regarding Polands own battles in Poland in 39 and its resistance afterwards. He makes a lot of good points in retrospect. Have picked up on Martins figures regarding the Polish kills in the Battle of Britian, and this oft mentioned figure proves to us that revisionism in its purest form is not a bad idea, until it gets into nationalistic trends. Historical facts are always worth revisiting, as Martin proves.

I am amazed now with Polands fight in 39. Am seeing a lot more to this theatre than I previously picked up. One book although written in the 50's describes in great detail Polands fight, a translation from the French, "The War" Not having it with me as it is in a library reference section I will put more details up when I next visit. But it is certainly worth a read, and may bring more information and dare I say it, even more respect for the Polish soldier than he has now with most of us, and with me that it certainly high anyway.

I can also see Stanchevs point on the expected attack that the Poles wished from the Allies on a second front in 39 to help relieve them, ok, as Fried says it may have been a disaster, but I'm thinking again, would it have been such a disaster at that time?

The politics behind it certainly point to the Poles expecting the allies to honour what they saw as their word to physically help them in the West in 39.

All things I have known about, but all worth revisiting, but probably without the nationalist slant that puts a lot of us off debating when being shouted at.

 

Thanks Mate

 

On April 19, 1943, the Warsaw ghetto uprising began after German troops and police entered the ghetto to deport its surviving inhabitants. Seven hundred and fifty fighters fought the heavily armed and well-trained Germans. The ghetto fighters were able to hold out for nearly a month, but on May 16, 1943, the revolt ended. The Germans had slowly crushed the resistance. Of the more than 56,000 Jews captured, about 7,000 were shot, and the remainder were deported to killing centers or concentration camps.

 

Few days ago there was a 62 Anniversary of Warsaw Ghetto Uprising

One of the most couregous Fights that have ever taken place on polish soil. To my regret not many Poles participated in that battle

Salute To fallen HEROES ['] ['] [']

 

Enemys of Great Reich


Starving Jewish boy in the Warsaw ghetto


Surrounded by heavily armed guards, SS Major General Jürgen Stroop


Two members of a Ukrainian militia unit stand opposite the bodies of Jews who had been killed during the uprising.



German sappers assigned to blow up the bunkers where the Jews were hiding, together with Jews that had been removed from one of the bunkers


Eisenhower said that those fighters fought a week longer then France

 

Did you know that after the war, the soviets threw Kazimierz Moczarski, an intel officer from the home army, into a prison cell with Stroop?

 

Co za pytanie ?
"Rozmowy z Katem"

 

I guess finally found the message that was broadcasted to the people of Warsaw and thus proves that Stalin/Red Army provoked the people to revolt.

On 30th July 1944 a Polish-languaged broadcast from the Soviet-controlled station :

"People of the Capital! To arms! May the whole population rise like a stone wall around the KRN and the Capital´s underground army. Strike at the Germans! Obstruct their plans to blow up public buildings! Assist the Red Army crossing the Vistula. Send them information. Show them the way. May your million-strong population become a million soldiers who will drive out the German invaders and win freedom!

From Norman Davies Rising 44

 

Errr, I dunno...

As far as I know the decision to launch the revolt was based more on the fact that the 2nd Tank Army was advancing rapidly on Warsaw and seemed bound to capture it within a short period of time. I bet the fall of Warsaw seemed very much imminent to both the Poles and Soviets, not knowing that the 49th Panzer Corps was concentrating for a devastating counter-attack at that very moment.

Think I have to do some reading on Warsaw, and see if I can dig up any actual statements as to what the decision to launch the revolt was based on...

 

Yes, Heartland, that is true as well. BUT so far all I have found on the Red Army side is that they have denied having sent any sort of messages that would have provoked the revolt. It did not start it as the only means but they sure did send a message that the people in Warsaw should arm themselves with whathever they got and start fighting the Germans. That´s the point.

Also there were politics involved as the Polish government in the UK and the Polish communistic government ( Under protection of Stalin ) were trying to be the first in the Free Warsaw and this also definitely influenced the beginning of the revolt as the one who´d be late would lose the power in Warsaw.

 

Ach so, I wasn't aware that it had been denied. All clear now, thanks!

 

You must not forget that there was also an order given by the Nazi Gen. Gouv. to gather all of Warsaw inhabitants to dig up the trenches on the eastern side od the polish capital
Germans needed thousands of polish youngsters for slave labour and the order was announced few days before the Uprising.

 

good pics!

 

On the bomber supply to Warsaw matter:

" Roosevelt refused Churchill´s request to send a second joint message requesting permission to send American planes to help Warsaw defenders. Harriman thought that the United States should persevere, but the State Department and Roosevelt did not."

From My Dear Mr Stalin by Susan Butler

Perhaps FDR believed all what Stalin said at the time, otherwise cannot understand really....

 

I don't understand why some are posting pictures of the Ghetto Uprising in a thread about the Warsaw Uprising of 1944. Too many people already get the two mixed up all the time as it is. Back in 1944, they didn't call it the Warsaw Uprising. They called it the Battle for Warsaw.

Some of the people posting here obviously have anti-Polish sentiments.
What Stalin did was criminal. He let the capital of Poland, an ALLIED country, burn to the ground.
What do you think historians would write about today, if lets say the Americans did not help out/cooperate with the French resistance in their capture of Paris? If the Americans let ALLIED French resistance soldiers fight and die without any assistance?

 

Let us not forget Poland and the Polish government's most important contribution to the fight against European Totalitarianism. Arguably, it was THE most important contribution for any nation on the Allied side, namely, the groundwork of Polish mathematicians attempting to break German codes.....

Their labours laid the groundwork for all that was to follow, and pushed British codebreakers along in a very timely fashion. This gave British intelligence a serious "head start" in the intelligence war that was, really, not relinquished for the duration of the war.

So, without this vital work, the run of German success would have been much longer, and more costly. Who knows? The Germans may have been able to turn their own military efforts from tactically important to strategically decisive....

Thankyou Poland and the Polish people! Your great national sacrifice was not for nothing! What was done to your country was a CRIME, not just from the Germans, but our "wonderful" Russian "allies".

So.....what was that about "effective"? I would say that this contribution was the most important of the war....comments?

 

Russian excuses for "running out of steam" before Warsaw in 1944 didn't come out in the wash then, or now.

Russian execution of Polish officers at Katyn Forrest won't go away either...

 

In the Road to Berlin, Erickson points out how the Warsaw uprising was in no way coordinated with the Red Army advance. In fact Stalin wasnt even given any notice until the last minute...

 

Fair comment I suppose, when you consider that the one thing the "London Poles" would not have done would be to inform their Soviet competition, so it is more than satisfactory for Stalin to claim to be uninformed....

However, the Red Army could have done SOMETHING, rather than watch on as bemused spectators.. They had fought in Winter conditions prior to 1944, so the "run out of steam" excuse really doesn't cut the mustard.

They simply sat back and handed the initiative back to the Germans long enough for the revolt to be crushed.

Warsaw was 95% rubble by the time they resumed their offensive.