France in ww2

Hi, everybody, my english is not very well lol
Is France, for you, a winner of the WW2 ? Yes/No ? Why ?

 

Yes. Even with the intial defeat she fought back. There was a French Army fighting through the liberation of France and all the way into Germany, giving good account of itself. There were also numeorus smaller French units that contributed greatly in various theaters, such as the squadron flying Yakovlev fighters on the Eastern Front.

Saying that France is not a winner in WW2 would be like saying the British aren't - sure they got trounced in the opening year(s), but came back to end up on top. Both needed some help to do so, but this doesn't change the fact...

 

No.
Because of the German occupation many Jews where sent to their death had the French held the Germans this would of been different.
Also i must say that a destruction of the army,navy,air force and total control of its country is a loss.
The french resistance and fighters were a brave bunch and sacrificed alot.

 

And lets not forget those Frenchmen that fought for the Germans in the Wehrmacht and Waffen-SS...

 

Okay, France was total controled by the germans, okay, there was some frenchmen that fought with the german army ( LVF, for example, but they were not 20 000 during all the WW2 !), but it was a lot of frenchmen who fought against germany ... In my opinion, and that's not because I'm french, I think that France is a winner of WW2 ...
At the end of the war, France had 500 000 soldiers ( FFI, FFL, etc etc) ...

 

France was a nation which held the 4th seat in the surrender ceremonies of Germany and Japan, right? The 4th judge and two prosecutors at Nuremberg were French, right? France occupied 1/4th of German territory in the post-war era, right? As Foch says, there were 500.000 French in uniform fighting for the Allied cause in 1945, right?

France was for sure a winner; a small one, but yet a winner.

France's contributions were significative as well: the rôle of the French resistance before and during the battles in France, the efforts of French soldiers, sailors and airmen fighting at North Africa, Indochine, Italy, the Eastern Front, France and Germany. And let's not forget that France (along with Great Britain, Belgium and Holland) caused 110.000 German casualties in 1940.

France, however, has a dual rôle in WWII. A shameful one for one side, because France fought the Western Allies in North Africa and Sirya, she actively contributed to the deportation of French Jews (90.000 were killed) and she provided men who fought for the Germans.

But that, unfortunately, was her fate. She was ill-prepared for war in 1939 and she paid for it, dearly.

 

Bienvenue, by the way!

 

France a winner? No.

Why? Because, putting it very simply, it was conquered and had to liberated.

Its contribution, however gallant and courageous, was not crucial to the overall outcome of the war. It certainly helped but did it 'win' the war... Not in my opinion. Without the actions of other Allied forces they would have remained occupied territory (well... till the Russians arrived anyway!). It was on the 'winning side', but it didnt win the war thats for sure...

 

OK. I think we may be having a little linguistical problem here, because in esence we do agree. (Besides, now I am not going to play the chauvinist and start saying how mighty and pious France was betrayed, even if she won the war for the Allies… )

What I said is true as well as what you said is also true. France's contribution to Allied Victory was, of course, substantial and important, but far from decisive. But, in the end, she rapidly overcame her defeat and soon became one of the four Allied powers. In other words, harsh ones, she got a lot more in exchange than she had earned…

[ 29. April 2005, 04:17 PM: Message edited by: General der Infanterie Friedrich H ]

 

Oh go on Freddy...

Be the mad Frenchman!

Then I can start with all the old '1000 French Rifles for sale' jokes!!!

No seriously, I think we do agree Freddy, just coming at it from different perspectives! I think you summed up what I was trying to say rether well!

 

No.

1. France lost her colonial possessions primarily as a result of WW 2.

2. France remained a military power only at the pleasure of the Allies and in particular, the US. Had the US and Britain decided that Vichy France was not worth bringing into the fold, so to speak, France would have been a conquered nation and liberated without significant participation on the Allied side post 1940.
It was only with US assistance that France was able to reestablish herself as a military force during the war. Without US aid France would have langusihed as a minor player in the war.

3. France's dilitance in politics post 1940 did nothing to increase her stability, stature or, trust with her allies. Personages like Petain, Darlan, Giruad and, de Gaulle did little but make the US and Britain wish they had never struck a deal with France to begin with.
These personages fought among each other over who would speak for France, made outrageous claims (Giruad demanded Eisenhower name him "Surpreme Commander of all Allied Forces in North Africa just before Torch as but one example) and performed self serving acts of military stupidity repeatedly (during Nordwind in Jan 1945 deGaulle threatened to use the French Army to attack Allied troops if the US withdrew from Strasbourg for example) throughout the war.

4. France remained politically fractured and weak during and after the war. If the US and Britain had not included them in the UN security council there was little France could really have done to change that. The same goes with the partition of Germany.

5. France's economy was largely wrecked by the war and post war socialism did nothing to restore it to anywhere close to being a competitive world power.

If anything, France came out of WW 2 a second rate power with little political clout in the post war world. By any measure, this was a defeat.

 

That's true, France remained a power because of the USA ... But in the history of the war there were a lot of situations like this ... For example, in the Independance War, without France, French help, etc etc, The United States doesn't exist ...
Do you Know what I want to say ?
France and US are friends since 1776 ... It was normal that US helps France in WW2...

 

Merci à toi , Friedrich ! J'essaye ici de défendre un peu mon pays

 

Sorry guys
but I must say that you still live in the dream world.


1.French forces bombarded Gibraltar and shot at British in Dakar 1940( same time Britain was defending the only free land in Europe from the Nazis)

2.French Vichy forces shot at the first US troops landings in 1942 in Algeria and Morroco in North Africa. I believe the idea of French troops fighting Americans who have come to liberate Europe from the Nazi's is dumbfounding!

3.French Railway assisted the Nazis in transporting Jews to the gas chambers of the Third Reich

4.After the liberation De Gaulle's government held on to internees from many countries in officially closed centres to hide collaboration (Jon Henley, October 4, 2004, The Guardian )

4. France was the only defeated Allied country whose government actively assisted the NAZIs. After the French surrender. The Vichy authorities actively assisted the NAZIs track down and deport Jews

5. After the erruption of NAZI violence on Kristallnacht (November 1938), the British permitted 10,000 German, Austrian, and Czech Jewish children to seek saftey in their country. The French did not open their borders to the children. It is no clear just why.

6. The most shameful single act was Vichy assistance in rounding up over 80,000 foreign and French Jews as part of the Holocaust so they could be shipped to the death camps in Poland.

7.France was humiliated and the worst part was that did not want to face the truth. How Can you measure Love to your country and to your family?

In my opinion.
You can measure by the way you defend your country and your sacrifice. Paris was never defended. The so called uprising took place hours before American tanks entered the city.
For me it’s a real sign of cowardice

8. and maybe you try to read about the battles fought by the brave frenchmen from those units:
LVF

Legion Tricolor

Phalange African

French Volunteer Grenadier Assualt Regiment

Franzosische-SS-Freiwilligen-Strumbrigade

SS-Waffen-Grenadier-Brigade "Charlemagne"

33.Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS "Charlemagen" (Franzisische Nr.1)

French soldiers in the IIWW

 

all right guys here you have something to read about the real history of France during Second WW and please stop writing new history because here You won't succeed:

French VOLUNTEERS : (a total of about 45000 volunteer men in military uniform).

1. The LVF (= légion des volontaires français) = Französiches IR 638 (1941-1943).
6249 men engaged in this unit
It fought very well during the battle for Moscow (very high losses), then reconstituted and mainly issued to anti-partisans warfare.

2. La Phalange Africaine (1942- 1943).
= company Frankonia, 2nd Battalion, 754. PzG Rgt, 334. PzG Division, 5. Panzerarmee (von Arnim).
A company of 212 French European men.
Engaged the 14, 16, 17, 23 and 25th April 1943 in the Medjez-El-Bab area against British forces (78th infantry division). Only 64 survivors (issued to LVF after that), 1 officer, 3 NCO and 1 soldier became the eiserne Kreuz.
The commanding officer has been beheaded by a New Zealand soldier.

3. NSKK Motorgruppe Luftwaffe (= Nationalsocialistische Kraftfahrkorps).
A Luftwaffe logictics unit (drivers, engineers).
2500 French men integrated since 21st July 1942 to form the 4th NSKK regiment.
NSKK Rgt 4 is first affected to the eastern front (Luftgau Rostov/Don) and then in the Balkans.
In 1943 it becomes NSKK Transport Brigade der Luftwaffe and is affected to France (logistics on the V1 launching sites) and then in Italia.
Often integrated in Kampfgruppe against partisans.
Served also in Danmark, Hungary and finally Austria.

4. Legion Speer.
about 500 French men, drivers for the Arbeitsamt.
21. PzD.
The 2nd Werkstattkompanie (logistics, reparation) is composed of 230 French men.
Kriegsmarine (1943-1945).
93 officers
3000 NCOs and men
160 engineers
680 technicians
served on ships and in coastal batteries as normal "Matrose" and "Gefreiter".
Kriegsmarinewerftpolizei "La Pallice" in La Rochelle and Kriegsmarinewehrmänner.
about 200 French men protecting the naval installations in La Rochelle.
Possible same kind of units in Saint Nazaire and Bordeaux.

5.Waffen SS (officially 1943-1945 but before for individual engagements and Volksdeutsche volunteers (Alsace, Lorraine citizens), difficult to identify because they are not registered as French in the German archives.
About 15000 to 20000 French men (difficult to know because of the "Volksdeutsche")
In "non French" divisions:
- in the Wiking division
- in the LAH
- at least 50 men in the Wallonie Division
- in the Das Reich division
- few men in the Götz von Berlichingen Division
- few men in the 29. Waffen Grenadier Division der SS (Italians SS)
In "French" units :
- Bezen Perrot = Bretonische Waffenverband der SS (80 men, formed in 1943), engaged in Bretagne against resistants (they wanted an independent region and fought against all French symbols), a symbolical unit.
- . Französiche SS-Freiwilligen Sturmbrigade (90% losses in Galicia and in the Carpates, 108 eiserne Kreuze)
- . Waffen-Grenadier Division der SS "Charlemagne" (Pomerania, 80% losses, and Berlin battle)
Not a single unit but a series of succeeding French volunteer units that fought in the German Army and later the Waffen-SS. The first unit was the LVF, or "Legion des Volontaires Français," followed by "La Legion Tricolore", which existed for just 6 months in 1942. By late 1943, the remaining French volunteers were inducted into the Waffen-SS Französische SS-Freiwilligen-Grenadier-Regiment, later upgraded to the 8. Französiche SS-Freiwilligen Sturmbrigade. Though upgraded to divisional status in February 1945, this unit of French volunteers was rather understrength. They fought against the soviets from October 1944 to May 1945. 80% of the division had been destroyed in Pomerania, sacrificed in Körlin to allow other German units to retreat and they already had proven their Panzerknackers ability. The division had no single tank or armored car ... very few artillery (few medium mortars, two 150 mm howitzers and six 75 mm howitzers only), a handful of Pak38 and Pak40 and several 37 mm Flak guns. After Pomerania the unit is rebuilding in Neusterlitz and reaches about 1000 men. Due to the lack of trucks only about 400 men reached Berlin, and that just while Russians were closing the encirclement around them. The "Sturmbataillon" sent to Berlin was equipped at 80% with StG 44, often two MG42 per squad, many Panzerfäuste, Panzerschrecks and handgrenades. They were organized in 5 "companies" :
- Kampfschule (Weber)
- Company Michel
- Company Rostand
- Company Olliver
- Company Labourdette
They were among the very last defenders of Berlin with remnants of the Nordland division. These volunteers destroyed officially 62 Russian tanks with Panzerfäuste in 1 week. At least 20 eiserne Kreuze and 4 Ritterkreuze had been earned in Berlin.
Hauptstuf Fenet (RK)
Uscha Vaulot (destroyed 8 tanks) (RK)
Oscha Appolot (destroyed 6 tanks) (RK)
Ostuf Weber (destroyed 13 tanks) (RK)
Uscha Brunet (destroyed 4 tanks) (EK)
From the 400 men only 30 survived the battle. Several were executed by the Russians and later four by the French forces of general Leclerc.
The Todt organization.
about 2000 volunteers in the armed Schutzkommandos for the protection of the building sites. They also have been engaged in combat in Lettonia and Yugoslavia, probably against partisans.
The Technische Nothilfe (Teno).
? men
One Pionnier Bataillon (provisory).
No unit designation, probably organized to repair the bridges across the Seine after allied bombings in 1944.
? men

6. Hitlerjugend supervision in summer camps.
KLV = Kinderlandverschickung in the camps of Langenargen, Bad Reichenhall and on the Konstanz lake.
? men and women

7. Flak units (1943-1944).
Vichy forces but under the German command to help because of the lack of Flak protection and the increasing air attacks.
- 4850 men in listening posts and projectors units
- 2049 men in rail road and fixed Flak.
- 2 AA artillery groups (401 and 402) each with 6 batteries with 12 French 25mm AA gun each. The groups kept their French denominations. Battery 1/401 was in Argentan (Orne) and battery 2/401 was in Mézidon (Calvados).

8. Volontari Di Francia (1943 - 1944).
- In 1943 after the armistice signed between the allies and Badoglio, 150 French men with Italian origins (mainly from Paris) joined the RSI of Mussoloni
In March 1944 : the Longobardo Bataillon is formed with these 150 men. They receive the same formation and training as the San Marco units.
Integrated in the Decima Flottiglia MAS in July 1944.
Forms the 3rd company of the Fulmine bataillon (mainly anti-partisan warfare on the Yugoslavian border where many Tito's partisans are infiltrating).
19th January 1945 they fight against 2000 Tito's Partisans : 1 week battle, 86 KIA and 56 WIA ... but the infiltration is blocked thanks to reinforcements (several POW are decapitated by the partisans).
- Also 160 French men from the Nice area in the republican national guard (Blackshirts) = Guardia Nazionale Reppubblicana.
Abwehr.
- 3 French men : Louis Marie Maurice Zeller, François Munoz and Alfred Gross used by the Abwehr since 1943. Under the command of Maurice Zeller a Frontaufklärungstrupp is organized against the French maquis/SAS in Saint Marcel (See Part II about the French SAS units).
They captured 1 officer + 2 NCO of the 2nd RCP. Then thanks to these uniforms they gathered information among the population and killed 7 other SAS (among them the commanding officer, Pierre Marienne) and 8 resistants. All 3 men have been executed on July 17, 1946.
- many special units depending from the Abwehr and later from the RSHA (Reichsicherheitshauptamt).

Albert Beugras aka "agent 30018" organized a spy network called "Atlas" in North Africa. Several of its members infiltrated the FFL forces that landed in Italia and Southern France.
Beugras directed also 6 sabotage schools during 1944 and 32 infiltration operations from Germany to France in late 1944. These infiltrations were conducted using allied captured planes (dakota, B17, B24). Classical airborne operations or using the PAG (Personen Abwerf Gerät), an airborne container with 3 men have been performed.
The captured allied planes were flown by KG200 and the "Olga" squadron.
95 men have been infiltrated but 86 were captured and 16 of them executed probably because a Free French spy was infiltrated in there !
Brandenburg Division.
In 1943, 180 French men formed the 8th company of the 3rd Regiment. Often Engaged in Southern France, imitating resistants (with captured radios) they captured many equipments/weapons deliveries and proceeded to many arrests.
This company has also been engaged against the resistance in the Vercors battle. They organized the glider attack usually said as being a Waffen-SS attack but the French witnesses have probably taken the "Brandenburg" arm patch for a SS marking.

German police units (about 10000 men in uniform + about 30000 civilian auxiliaries, not counted).
- Sicherheitspolizei = Sipo (? men).
- Sicherheitsdienst = Sipo-SD (? men).
- Selbstschutzpolizei = SSP : selfprotection police created during spring 1943 by Standartenführer SS Hermann Bickler (a French man from Alsace) in order to infiltrate the resistant organizations and to protect the collaborationist movements. About 5000 men.
- The "Jen d'Eclache" group : 30 armed men formed in 1943 and operationnal in the Dauphiné area and in Grenoble.
- The "mouvement anti-terroriste national" (in Lyon) : 150 men, formed in 1943 and attached to the Sipo-SD administration.
- In the city of Bordeaux, Friedrich Wilhelm Dohse managed to federate all the anti-communist movements against the resistance.
- the "Hauskapelle" (about 300 men formed by the French Brandenburg 8th Coy, created in 1944)
- Le Corps Franc Français (CFF) created in 1943, about 40 men
- La Phalange raciste, already existing end 1940.
+ not counted : the French Milicia from Darnand (Vichy government) but often used by the germans for military operations against the French resistants.

French North Africans.
They served in:
- Todt organization
- Brigade Nord Africaine (180 Muslims Algerians that were used as guards in the Peugeot factories of Socheaux). Originally founded by Mohamed Al Maadi, a very religious man hating jews, who met the great Mufti of Jerusalem in Berlin. They executed at least 50 French workers and are responsible for many rapes and plunderings. Almost destroyed during combats against partisans.
- Deutsche-Arabische Legion (January 1943) that became Deutsche Arabische Lehrverband and later 845. Bataillon der Wehrmacht (commander = Oberleutnant Meyer-Ricks). They served in Caucasus and against Tito's partisans.
- Sonderverband 287 (in Greece and Ukrainia) and 288 (In Tunisia), depending from the Abwehr and later integrated in the Wehrmacht as Panzergrenadier Regiment (mot.) "Afrika" (commander = Oberst Menton), in the 90. Leicht Division.

 

Uh, you have a very sectarian vision of the history... I see that you went on the site "F*** France", are you francophobe? I am French and proud to be it... I do not have anything against the United States and American. I always regarded them as allies, friends . But you ( sanchev ), you seem to be rather arrogant (it is possible that I am mistaken, I do not know oneself). Afflicted in any case to contradict you but in any case, there were more the resistant ones than collaborationists in France during the second world war...
Without you, we would not have gained this war, we respect you, but you cannot deny that France was one gaining of the war ...
Don't Forget: Without France, there's no USA

(edit: curse word removed)

[ 01. May 2005, 11:54 AM: Message edited by: Otto ]

 

First of all I am Pole. ( you know guy from Poland) )
second
I remember french propaganda before september 1st 1939 "We dont want to die for Danzig (polish town)" slogans.
Poland asking for Your help surrounded by Nazis and Soviets.
You did not even try to die for Paris.

I cant wait for General der Infanterie Friedrich H reply I miss him hahahah since moderator closed our last discussion about Poles in WWII

Its a joke of history that France was represented during capitulation. I remember that one of German officers asked: "what are those french doing here?"- it was witnessed by soviet commander

Even the Warsaw Ghetto defenders (almost starved to death people) hold on a 1 week longer then PROUD Franch who gave up their capital without a fight

Anyway I admire french resistance and sacrifice of those men.

 

HAd the feeling this would happen... Think you should both calm down a little. Stanchev, we know you have no love of the French but I think you maybe overstating things slightly. But you cant say the French didnt fight hard... Your statements of Charlemagne prove that!

Wasnt Danzig technically a 'free city' rather than a Polish one in 1939?

Hmmmm... Are you positive of this? Where did you find this info? Most published sources state that the operation was conducted by SS FJ600 supported by the 157th Infantry. I cant imagine that the arm patch would have been visible as the troops went into action in jump smocks. I would be very interested in published sources that contradict the usual view.

 

danzig was a free city everybody knows it
you probably know about corridor and free city legal status or you want to teach me polish history?

and what do you mean by most of the published sources state that the operation was conducted by SS FJ600 supported by the 157th Infantry. what kind of sources?

any way when I put something online that