stalingrad?

The mighty german master race got "beat" by inferior, sub-humans and Hitler didn't learn a damn thing. Stalingrad was the beginning of the end for the master race and Adolf Hitler.

 

Continuation from "was the Wehrmacht overrated?"

The situation was far more tricky...

1. No one in OKW expected the Soviets to respond with such an offensive (according them, Russia did not have the reserves).

2. Germany did not have enough men of her own to storm Stalingrad and protect her flanks.

3. No one in Germany expected the Italians, Romanians and Hungarians to be so ineffective, besides; since Germany did not have enough troops for her flanks her allies had to do the job (this should not have been a problem had the OKW been correct about Soviet reserves, surely the Germans werent going to give Stalingrad to those 3). Also, all 3 nations asked Germany for help before the offensive began (multiple times) as they were too thin and were refused (Germany had no men to spare).

4. Im not sure that the Volga and Don could be secured without Stalingrad. The 62nd and 64th Soviet Armies were inside (after they escaped the 6th) and would constantly plague the Germans. Stalingrad would also secure a firm base of operations for the Germans and negate any oil coming up the river from the caucus.

5. The two pincers surrounding Stalingrad were complete in 3 days(!?). IMO, it was impossible for Germany to realize what had happened and order a withdrawal. IMO, to suggest that the 6th army was in any condition to mount an offensive aimed at breaking through the fresh and supperior Soviet forces is simply ludicrous. The 6th army was in shambles. Virtually every German soldier was either starving, freezing, wounded, sick, shell shocked, or completely demoralized. They had no more fuel, extremely low on ammunition, virtually no mechnized infantry or panzers and no air support. The Red Army on the other hand had everything and continued to pound 6th army positions. If any order had ever been made to mount an attempt to break through, it would have been as useless as ordering them to the moon.

6. Even if some of the 6th army had somehow managed the impossible and broken through, the 6 soviet cavalry divisions (which were part of the pincers) would have caught up and mowed them down like grass. Just as they historically had at the Korsun Pocket.

IMO, the biggest loosers were the Hungarians, Romanians and Italians as they were permanently kicked out of the war. After Stalingrad Germany had forever lost her alies in Europe.

 

I've seen nothing to indicate that the Finns were particularly interested in even laying siege to Leningrad much less participate in a direct assault against it. I have no idea how the Germans could have forced the Finns to do anything in this regard either.

 

Indeed, it was either to relocate German units to the flanks or to go on in Stalingrad; not the both at the same time. In fact, complete relocation of German units to their flanks was their only chance to prevent the utter defeat. However, German officers were so indoctrinated that they weren't able foresee how ambitious their Russian counterparts were.

 

About a withdrawal of 6Army between 8 and 15 november.
1)Even on 6th november(!!) FHO was thinking that the main Soviet attack would be directed against AGC
2)If 6 Army was retreating between 8 and 15 november,where would it go,where would it stop,and,could it defend the new line?
3)I am doubting that 6 Army would be able to retreat and to be in safety in a few days :185000 men would have to cover a distance of 100(?)km on foot,without the protection of heavy weapons.

 

I think it's easy to miss the sheer scale of the Axis and hence Germany's losses. The Southern Front was ripped open, the whole of 6th Army and part of 4th Panzer were destroyed the Italians, Hungarians and Rumanians had massive losses. Soviet losses though big were replaceable the Germans weren't. At times it was touch and go that the whole Southern Front would be cut off. Figures vary depending on which Soviet offensives you include but:

Germans lost totally 13 infantry divisions (44,71,76,79,94,113,295,297,305,371,376,384,389) 1 jaeger division – 100, 3 motorized divisions – 3,29,60, 3 panzer division – 14,16,24 and some additional reserves. Outside of Stalingrad 298 and 385 infantry divisions were destroyed , 22 and 27 panzer divisions, 2 Luftwaffe divisions – 7 and 8 got smashed. Hard to say but in and out of the pocket Germany lost say 400,000 but some say 500,000.

4 Allied armies wrecked (2nd Hungarian, 3rd and 4th Romanian and 8th Italian) lost:

The Italian Army suffered 84.830, killed, missing and captured between 11/12/42-31/01/43. Another 29,690 were wounded or victims of frost bite (Glantz).
Romania lost around 150,000.
Hungary lost about 105,000.

Not to mention the Luftwaffe transport fleet and to a degree the bombers suffered big losses.

 

Im not sure that the Volga and Don could be secured without Stalingrad. The 62nd and 64th Soviet Armies were inside (after they escaped the 6th) and would constantly plague the Germans.

What increment of the total Soviet forces involved in the campaign would that be, and how does it compare to the proportion of Axis forces which would not be tied up fighting in the city? All it really means is that the same troops would be fighting in open combat somewhere outside Stalingrad, which is all to the Germans' benefit. Taking the offensive in urban combat was the absolute least advantageous way for the Germans to fight the Russians.

......negate any oil coming up the river from the caucus.

Any Axis position on the riverbank would achieve this. Whether or not they advanced into the "land bridge" or the city, they would likely be occupying the right bank of the Volga starting at the bend a few miles south of Stalingrad.

We're all familiar with maps of the campaign. The city of Stalingrad is a tiny piece of the battle area. The campaign might well still be lost, but that would reflect the overall balance and quality of forces, not whether or not the Germans captured Stalingrad.

 

Also, why would the 6th retreat on the 8th of Nov? As far as the Germans were concerned, the Soviets were in worse shape than they were. Just one more push and the city would fall.....

 

There is another point (mostly neglected) :Fall Blau and Uranus did not happen in a vacuum:since 1 january,the Soviets were attacking along the whole front,it is true that these attack were costly,and had little results,but the fact remains that,already in 1942,the Red Army was attacking,and the Germans were strategically in defensive.
FallBlau was not dominating the war in the east,AGS had some 60 divisions of a total of 173.If we look at the loss figures,we see that AGN and AGC were in a delicate position in the summer of 1942:
from 1 june to 30 november,
20 Army (Dietl) lost 15000 men :3 batallions per month
AGN: 124000 men:25 batallions per month:a catastrophe at Leningrad was avoided only,by the arrival of 11Army
AGC:157000 men =1 batallion per day
AGS (AGA included) :303000 men =2 batallions per day
The result of these losses was1)there were no replacements enough: on 18 november,6 Army already was very weakened 2)there were no(not enough) mobile reserves available to counter the expected Soviet attacks.All the Germans could do,was to hope for the best,and to expect the worst .
1942 already was a war of attrition which Germany could not afford .

 

The date is what i have set as the point to do it. A prerequisite would have been a good recon, what the Germans didn´t made. And to me, there is no way to hide the movement of so much soldiers like the Russians moved around. You must have seen them from a recon aircraft. There was no line to get back for the 6th Army but as i said, it is always better for any unit to have the abillity of a more or less free movement. This makes it much harder to beat them than to know they were sitting like a mouse in the trap. I´m sure that it have had no influence on the way of the war, but to me it was dumb to gave so much man away and not only tactically. This event had a huge psychological effect too.

 

Take any date you like as long as it is before the 19th. Push with what?

 

This has been and perhaps always remain a hot topic for debate. We have hindsight so in retrospect anything would be better than what historically happened All we can do is speculate. IMO, Stalingrad, was the largest southern city on the Volga. Its industrial output was enormous. The city also had huge psychological importance. Had this city not been taken the Red Army would always be present to hit the Germans or her allies on the flanks (similarly to the way Boldin kept hitting Guderian at Tula during Typhoon) then retreat back into the city. Think of the Kursk salient, but this time put a large city there instead.... The Russians were able to replenish the city with hundreds of thousands of men under fire. Imagine what they might have done had they were allowed to do this freely

Had the city fallen, the Germans would not only have a huge morale boost but also secure all land upto the Volga Red Army free with a shorter and better defensive position and excellent landing strips for the Luftwaffe.

What would they do if Stalingrad was fully in Russian hands? What if the Russians launched a similar offensive aimed at cutting of the Germans at the bend from the rest of the front?

Just my two cents

 

By the time the counteroffensive started the Germans only needed 100 yards. Why would they simply stop and retreat? Not trying to be difficult Geb, im just not seeing the reason for Germany to give up the advance when so close to victory and under full impression that the Russians were all but finished.

The last push with the men they had No matter whast condition they were in the Red Army had to be in worse shape, or so they thought...

 

Dito!

Those sneaky Russians! Manstein was certainly surprised when he found out he had to break the attempt to break through to the 6th and help stabilize the norther sector of the front.... He was a busy little bee.

 

Wit all due respect, this could have been true in 1941 but in the end of 1942 Red Army was ready to beat Axis anywhere. Operation Uranus is the best proof. The battle could have taken place anywhere and yet Germans would have lost it, only the sequence of events would have been different.

 

The reason to retreat would have been seen if they did a good job with their recon. You must have been blind to see it different! And to the other point, let me quote a members saying, don´t know exactly who it was but here it is: " That sneaky Russians!"

 

Tamino, the Russians were ready to beat the WM, but Carronade isn´t wrong with his opinion that a open terrain is much better to handle than sitting in fixed positions. And you should not forget that fighting during the move was the secret why they have beaten so much Armies before, no matter how strong your enemy is. Move around stay in action and don´t let the enemy dictate what you have to do. A little secret to master the most of the battle situations if the terrain allows it.

 

Great post Sloniksp, I only have one quibble - the Italians wern't kicked out of the war after Stalingrad (although it was the beginning of the end)
There were about 130,000 Italians engaged at the battles for Stalingrad, 85,000 were killed or captured, 45,000 withdrew.

After Stalingrad Italy was still fighting as part of Panzer Army Afrika, or "Deutsch-Italienische Panzerarmee, Armata Carro Armato Italiano-Tedesco" - yikes, with a name like that, no wonder they lost....
Italy still fought on after Stalingrad in Tunisa & Sicily, where they lost at least 200,000 men.

 

Deception was essential indeed; hence such surprise and delayed response by Paulus. Wehrmacht wasn't able to understand what was going on until it was hopelessly too late. That sneaky Stalin requested 'a regime of the strictest secrecy'.

 

Not bad Tamino. And what played the Russians in hands, was that Paulus was the wrong man at the place. He wasn´t known to be a agressive Commander who was able to show up with quick decisions. He would have been more successful at the Normandy, where it was a bit more time to react.