Why the Germans?

Damned typos!

And yes, Terry, the article is most interesting, even if it takes a while to digest. A pity computers haven't quite reached the stage of "comfortable t****t portability", so I could read and ruminate at will

 

Sappers response

 

The Best? Not so much, I think.

The most feared, yes. Well (enough) equipped/trained/positioned, and probably most of all...willing to attack...and resolute (for the most part) to not back down.

The fear that they are close, they have a good Army, they can attack, and they will (politics/negotiation be damned).

The feeling that you're next, and any treaty with them can be instantly worthless.

Submit to them, commit against them, or be devoured by them. No one likes to be made to do anything. Peace was not "on the table" with them, back then.

They forced a passive world to become aggressive, and not for any gain. All for gigantic losses, self preservation, and to get back to where you were.

I still get a "kick" out of the Darlicks? on Dr. Who. They are synonymous with world domination/Terror, and have rivets...and look remarkably like "Panzers".

 

It strikes me that Skunk Works could also be describing how various Native American populations felt in the 19th Century as US "Manifest Destiny" rolled westward.

 

It's spelt "Daleks". And there not Rivets-there a sort of teleportation device and also a self-destruct mechanism.
Much better than the Cybermen, though. And the Slitheen look like teletubbies. And don't get me started on the Sontarans!

 

Conquistadors, Romans, Egyptians, Persians, Huns, Vikings, Mongols, the Native Americans among themselves, Napoleon, HooToo's/TootSee's, Pal pot(?), ......

Just pick one....anywhere/anytime...(It's all good!)

I like the "Daleks", they're bad-boys, with no hope of negotiating.

 

I think there are several reasons why the Germans and the German military is so fascinating to many. I will touch upon those that I think are most important, or at least have the most influence on people.


Romanticism


The Germans were experts at presentation and mysticism and they based much of the romanticism they created around the military in general and the Waffen-SS in particular on mythology. Especially the Norse mythology. If you look at the Waffen-SS coat-of-arms and unit insignias, they are all very easily distinguished. The same thing is true for uniforms and uniform details. They were in many ways tailored to provoke some sort of reaction in the viewer, be it fear or admiration. They still provoke today, perhaps not so much admiration as romanticism. Of course propaganda played its part in portraying the German fighting man as something very special and unique. These images live on today in the minds of amateur and professional historians alike.


Much of this romanticism also springs from the hopelessness and futility found in the first hand accounts of the later stages of the war. The Germans faced almost insurmountable odds at times, and still managed to accomplish great feats of both defensive and offensive nature. It is my firm belief that if you ask a bunch of people that have a great interest in the German war effort what period of the war they are most interested in, the vast majority will answer the mid to late period. It is just a guess, but this was a time when German equipment had matured, the most famous designs were in production, and the situation for Germany had begun to deteriorate.



Training & Doctrine


Well trained German units were in many ways ahead of its time. This is evident in the adaptability and ingenuity often displayed by German fighting forces during the war. Each man knew what was expected of him, and oftentimes what was expected of their comrades so that they could fill in for them if necessary.


The use of Kampfgruppen as mobile “fire brigades” was also something that can be considered to be ahead of its time back then. Small forces of mixed armor, infantry and artillery often managed to stall the enemy far longer than their numbers would suggest was possible and at times even strike hard at an enemy far superior in numbers. This of course breeds even more “admiration” and romanticism in the eyes of the post war observers. It is no surprise that many military forces today were built on the foundations laid by the German armed forces of WW2.


Equipment & Personalities


This was touched upon under the first paragraph, but is worth mentioning again. In many ways German engineering was a case “almost, but not quite”. During the war they designed and produced a wide variety of vehicles and weapons that worked very well in the field. However, in many cases these designs fell short of being enough to turn the tide of the war, either because the design couldn’t be produced in enough numbers, or because it suffered from some flaw that made it vulnerable in some way. This leaves a lingering feeling of “what if…” and it certainly tickles the imagination.


Still, there are many occasions where certain types of vehicles showed their worth by accomplishing astounding feats in the hands of a capable crew. Look at Wittman, Bolter, Rondorf, Hartmann, Galland etc, and you understand that these people really stood out at the time and perhaps even more so today.


Couple this with the fact that the Germans seldom employed any real rotation in their units, meaning that you could theoretically spend the entire war in active service (with extended leave periods in between of course).



This meant that if you survived you could amass experience in a way an allied soldier never could. This produced a cadre of men that could quite easily be described as the “ace of aces” of their respective service branch. So it is no surprise that some of the most notable servicemen in terms of achievements came from the German ranks, and that of course breeds even more romanticism, some of it deserved, some of it not.
I might not always agree with those that find the German war machine so fascinating, but I can understand where the fascination comes from. Occasionally I fall into that pit too, but I try to keep in mind that there are always two sides to a story.


Sorry for the rambling nature of the post and the poor grammar. English isn’t my first language. I’m probably wrong to boot.

 

If English is not your first language, then I shall wager that you speak at least two languages better than most English speaking people -- your native tongue and English!

Excellent post! Of course, I cannot help but compare your beginning assertions regarding German insignia to the many "branding" seminars that I have been required to attend. I have images of Goebbels staying up late designing style manuals and arguing with design experts about color palettes!

Still the branding worked. Even if we will always remember the German insignia as symbols of evil, we will remember them . . . just, it seems, as many of the fellows on this website will remember the Daleks!

 

Thank you for the kind words.

It is indeed a branding of sorts. I think that it wasn't just the centralized propaganda efforts that came into play when it came to this "branding" of the German military. There was a widespread feeling of frustration and humiliation in Germany during the inter-war years and the Nazi regime was pushing all the right buttons in order to stir the masses. This of course rubbed of on the military in general, but especially the Waffen-SS who was supposed to be Hitlers elite guard. It became a second nature of sorts to surround units, men, events etc with this sort of mysticism and romanticism.

 

The Germans started the war with a superior doctrine borne of their late World War 1 experiance. Coupled with a realistic training doctrine it put them ahead of their immediate enemies in the West, particularly France. France had the misfortune to come away from WW 1 with all the wrong strategies and tactics. Their doctrine of "Methodical Battle" was so badly flawed as to be hopeless.

As for the use of Kampfgruppen, the Germans like the US found this a mixed blessing. Digressing for a moment, one should note that by the end of 1942 the entire German war effort could probably best be characterized as a huge improvisation itself. This goes for everything. Training, doctrine, equipment, orgainzation, tactics. Literally, the German army was relying more and more on half-measures, expedients, and local fixes to fight the war at all.
As for the KG system, by the same period it had become almost an institution in the East where it continued to work well against the poorly orgainzed Soviets. In the West, it was becoming an unmitigated disaster. By 1944 the use of Kampfgruppen in the West was actually detrimental to German success.

The biggest problem for the Germans was that the people responsible for deciding what would be produced were all combat types rather than logistics minded individuals. The combat oriented officer wanted and demanded the best. The various technical offices of the military made frequent changes to production and recommended various upgrades at almost daily intervals.
The manufacturers were hamstrung by these. Look at how many different models of tank and how many variants of each existed. More armor, bigger gun, change this, change that continiually slowed production.

A handful of something in the hands of an expert might make a difference once or twice tactically. But, it was not going to win wars. The whole of the German military became that way by 1942. There was this dwindling handful of "aces" in airplanes, tanks, or whatever that were deadly experts in their art. They were backed by masses of poorly trained replacements in ad hoc units using a mixed bag of equipment that ranged from excellent to pathetic in quality.
Guys like Wittmann or Hartmann were vicious in their small world until they met their eventual end (yes, Hartmann survived but he's an exception here) at the hands of an ever increasing number of quality Allied troops with a mass of equipment that was both uniform and "good enough."

There were many Allied "aces" in the various arms too, but they seemingly get less play than their German counterparts.

 

Excellent post Gardner. It does indeed seem like the allied "aces" get less play than the Germans ones, but I would venture a guess and say that this mostly holds true for the "hardcore" crowd of ww2 amateur historians. I think few of the German "achievers" are much known outside this small crowd of post war students. But that is just a guess.

Interesting digression on the Kampfgruppe. True, it was an ad hoc formation, often made up on the fly, but it did indicate a great flexibility and adaptability, even if it didn't always pan out as planned. It is interesting to see that some armed forces today still use the term Kampfgruppe when talking about combined arms operations of various kinds. I also think that the fact that they (the Germans that is) named these KG's after their commanders stirred the imagination of many, even today.

 

They named the Kampfgruppe after their commanders because there was simply no bleeping other way to designate them, being extemporaneous there was no possible systematic way to name them.

Screw the mystique. May I recall that the Kampfgruppe were no exclusive of the Germans, others using them as well? The French word for that was Groupement, and it meant any form of cross attaching forces from different sub-units. The British had their own grand sounding temporary groupements, for example: Popski's Army, Layforce ( Lt-Col Laycock), Savige Force (Brig S.Savige), Porter Force (Lt Col A M Horsborough-Porter), etc. etc.

 

Easiest to remember for all the reasons touched upon, and one which I believe is almost too obvious, that all have "danced" around.

The circus type atmosphere of it all. The colors, (no matter what they said it meant) are generally thought of as...red - blood, black -mystic/unknown, white - Angelic, silver - sparkle/shine.

Flags, pennants, banners fluttering in the breeze.

Poles, standards, balconies, podiums, stages, rallies, torches, searchlights, marches, ceremonies, arenas, parades, pageants and stadiums.

Symbols, uniforms, armbands, jewelry, daggers, medals, riding crops, rope/acorn, sashes, shoulder/collar boards, puffy pants, leather gloves and shiny boots.

Loudspeakers, music, arm waving, goose-stepping, and stiff arm salutes, showmanship, prestidigitation, magic, romance, and awe.

Speaking of destiny, God's will, righteous indignation, proud genetic history, betterment, need, be a part of the final solution. Translation = Tired of doing things many times, join up and once is enough.

The tired old...one to end all other ones....sales pitch.

Bugs to a "Bug-Zapper"....these bugs don't just meander over to where it is and die....

they race to it!

a circus pretty much, always draws a crowd, no matter how much we think of ourselves as being advanced, and above such things.

The Psychological weakness that dwells in all mammals. To be a part. One of the herd.

Baaaaah!

Election time again, remember to vote for the one with the most cotton candy & balloons, and of course, the one with the most over quoted quotes, and one line "Zingers"!.......de-ja vu...

 

That goes a long way. Compare:



with

 

Is that edelweiss on the German plane? Was that part of the design of the plane or the artist's interpretation? I do not know WWI very well.

 

That was the Lt. Baumer's personal emblem, pilots had a lot of leeway in decorating their planes. The green and red border tail is the unit identification (Jagdstaffel 5 in this case), the only fixed element, the rest of the pilots would use their own designs provided they respected the unit colours, in this case in the tail.

See a bit here http://wp.scn.ru/en/ww1/f/415/59/4

 

As mentioned earlier, they were masters of propaganda. When I was young, and would see movies of der Fuehrer speaking, it was hard not to get caught up in it. And I didn't even speak German. And Triumph of the Will is powerful theater!

 

​