What would have happened if Hitler would have decided not to postpone operation Barbarossa

Everybody knows that the imprudent invasion of Mussolini of Greece resulted as a total disaster and Benito invaded Greece without Grofaz initials assistance. The invasion of Crete postponed operation Barbarossa 4 weeks which might have been essential for the victory in the newly inaugurated Eastern Front, allowing Germans to smash Soviet resistance around Moscow before General Winter came into action. The question is..... if the Germans had decided not to carry out the invasion of Crete, would they have been able to capture Moscow and cripple Soviet resistance???.


I think this 4 weeks might have been decisive to the eastern front, and therefore to the overall result of the war. Considering that Staling considered seriously surrendering by those early stage of the Russian campaing, the capture of Moscow would have meant a decisive blow to the Soviet morale

 

I think that the only thing that could have helped the germans in winning the war would have been putting the invasion of france on hold. So do I think that the Crete issue would have helped the germans, no. But man the Airbourne troops lost at Crete would have helped the Germans alot on the eastern front. Crete was also of great need to the germans because if served as a naval and airbase for forthcoming issues in Africa and control of the med.

 

I find it highly doubtful that the 6,698 causalities that the Germans suffered during the battle of Crete would have helped them a lick in Operation Barbarossa.

Crete as far as I've read was never really utilized by the Germans to it's full potential. It could have been a Malta in the eastern Mediterranean but really just tied up some troops to garrison it.

4 Weeks may have got the Germans to Moscow before General Winter set in, but I doubt capturing Moscow would have brought total victory.

Yours,

Bill

 

In normandy only about 3000 held off two american divisions for almost a month. The SS and Fallschirmjager(airbourne) on the western front were the elite troops stationed their

 

We can only guess that the few extra weeks of good weather WOULD have been enough for the Germans to take Moscow. And then what? Total Russian collapse? Probably not and the Russian resolve would mean that the eventual outcome of the war in the east was never really in doubt - or changes.

 

http://www.ww2f.com/what-if/21461-i...ion-barbarossa-his-initial-proposed-date.html

 

I would be very interested in your source(s) for this statement.

 

the 12th ss by herbert meyer intro

 

Starting Barbarossa four weeks early requires evaluation of the rainfall and crosscountry conditions in June. Drawing from Soviet and German weather reports a couple historians have noted a above average ammount of rain in late May & early June. At least one river, the Bug if I recall correctly, was flooded above the level of the roads leading to the bridges. If all this is correct then a attack start of late May or eraly June would be severely slowed. The cross country mechanized manuvers and artillery deployment that cut aprat the Soviet border defenses and trapped several armys in late June and july would have been nearly impossible earlier. The flooded rivers would have prevented the crtical pentration to the city of Minsk before a defense could be organized.

Anyway I'd investigate the weather and ground conditions first.

While manpower was important to the German attack six or seven thousand would not make much difference. Total casualties to August 30 were a bit over 400,000 and by 1 December 800,000+. Seven thousand men is less than 1% of the replacements needed.

Equally critical was the shortage of supply transport. Standard formula of the Germany Army and Wehrmacht supply services for estimating supply transport requirements showed shortfalls of between 25 & 40 % of requirements. Hitler choose to ignore those estimates. Even after allocating captured trucks from the French and Belgian armys, stripping railroad transport from the occupied nations, and requisitionsing trucks and rail cars from German industry the shortage of supply transport could not be made good, and still fell more than 20% short of estimates.

As the campaign progressed the earlier estimates for transport needed proved short. The lack of paved roads, sabatoge of the railroads, and effcient evacuation of Soviet locomotives and railcars left the Wehrmacht short more than 30% of what it needed. The unexpected Soviet resistance from October thru December required a full allocation of combat supplys, which had not been planned for at all. That period was susposed to have been a 'occupation' and mopping up phase. The combat and supply requirements were actuially higher in the last quarter of 1941s than during June thru September.

The shortage of transport is clearly illustrated in the reports from the artillery commanders. During the battles of November/December they report that the ammunition available is 50% to 75% below that needed for the attacks they were making.

 

Well this will also remain a controversial issue but this 4 could have been also useful in preparing the germans againtnts russian resistance and attacks during winter and reequipping troops in this front with adequate winter clothing and the like.

 

They would have never equipped German troops with winter clothing. If they didn't do it on the historical time, should they start farther away from winter, they wouldn't even consider the possibility. All in all, what Carl W said. And how would the germans be any more prepared against Russian attacks in the Winter?? They were advancing so so matter of preparation could be done in a way to prevent Russian winter attacks. If they reinforced the positions they had previous of the attack, how would that help them when they were 300 miles to the East??



Cheers...

 

Even if the Germans had taken Moscow in 41' that would not have changed anything. The Russian counteroffensive would still have taken place, pushed back the Germans and perhaps even have a 'Stalingrad' at Moscow. The Germans would still have been ill prepared for the winter. Moscow was an important objective, but its fall would not have ended the war in Russia.

 

Admiral Raeder tried to convince Hitler to concentrate on the mediteranean in 1941. If the Germans had thrown their resources into capturing Malta (to eliminate British air attack against their supply convoys to rommel) things might have been quite different for them that year.

Raeder like almost everyone except Hitler, realized the insanity of attacking Russia and realized German resources would be more effective elsewhere. Raeder's idea was that with Rommel reinforced, Egypt and the Suez canal could then be captured along with middle eastern oil fields. (The British had forces in Iraq and Egypt but they could not have withstood a determined German attack.) After all that had happened Hitler could then be free to attack Russia from the south and the west if he chose. His southern flank would be secured and oil supplies assured, eliminating Hitler's worry about the Russians over running the Rumanian oil fields the Wehrmacht depended on.

The Germans had a chance to crush the Russians in 1941 but only if Hitler had let his Generals run the campaign - instead of constantly meddling with their directives and changing objectives over and over again, which is exactly what he did.

 

Uhmm....Seems to me the Germans did just that. They captured Crete in June, 1941, after fierce fighting. They called it Operation Mercury. Maybe you have your islands confused....Malta, maybe?

The Germans didn't have the naval assets to support a campaign in the Middle east. It would have failed for the same reason the Russian campaign failed; LOGISTICS.

Hitler's generals advised him to forego an invasion of the Soviet Union. If his generals had prevailed, Barbarossa wouldn't have happened. Remember, it was the generals who were responsible for logistics, not Hitler. They knew they didn't have what it took to win in Russia.

 

Logistics? Bah !!!! What do Logistics have to do with anything? LOL Logistics are the bane of "What if?"ers.

 

What about the German and Italian navies put together? If Raeder's plan were implemented they would have control of the entire Mediterranean area(except Gibralter, a very big exception of course).

Sorry you're right! I meant MALTA not Crete. i will go back and change it.

 

Well, I will concede that the German and Italian navies, combined, might have been able to control the Mediterranean, except for Gibraltar and the mouth of the Suez Canal. But that doesn't buy them control of the Middle-east, British forces can still go around the Cape of Good Hope (as they did historically) and keep their forces in Persia and Iraq reinforced and resupplied. The Germans have no hope of controlling the sea lanes in the Indian Ocean and would still have to supply their forces in the Mid-east by very long and difficult overland routes. That puts them at a big disadvantage.

The other problem for the Germans is that they have to get to the Med before they can combine with the Italian navy and that is, at best, problematic for the Kriegsmarine. Besides that, stripping the KM of surface combatants to allow control of the Med leaves nothing to defend German positions in Norway; it would be extremely easy for the Allies to cut them off from their source of iron ore. Additionally, the Germans have no naval bases closer than the French Atlantic coast, so maintaining any kind of fleet in the Med for any period of time is highly questionable.

 

Hitler "WI I send the Wehrmacht aginst Russia. Their armys sucks & I can capture Moscow in three months?

Umpire "You dont have enough locomotives, rail cars, automotive trucks, or engineering pieces to rebuld the railroads. I'll roll he dice... and place Out of Supply markers on 2/3 of your pieces."

Hitler "WI I send Rommel and a Korps to Afrika?"

Umpire "There are not enough Italian ship markers to move enough supply points to Africa. Place a OOS marker on your pieces in Africa."

Hitler "WI I attack England with the Luftwaffe?"

Umpire "After rolling the dice each side removes half his aircraft pieces, and oops you left your aircraft production chart set at near zero, and your pilot training chart low as well.

Hitler "WI I put all these divsion pieces on the map. COOL!"

Umpire "The skilled labor chart is reset to near zero and supply production drops. All your pieces are flipped to half strength."

 

Brilliant, Carl!

 

The British are thrilled. Now they can bottle both navies up in the Med and probably destroy them if they come out and play.