This is especially for those who oppose the Death Penalty. Would you still oppose it after reading t

I know... nor do I want to get involved in a theological-biblical discussion... I have posted the link to the document Evangelium Vitae, which is quite clear on the matter: every human life is sacred and must be absolutely respected, from conception to natural death. That is God's law, the Church's doctrine and what I believe. That is all I have to say.

 

Hi Fried, im having problems accessing links to all sites today. Ill look into your posted link when the "computer and or internet" feels better and cooperates.

 

C.Evans & Friedrich

the "An Eye For An Eye." a tooth for a tooth statment in scripture was originally to prevent vendetta style killings - the purpose was no more than a life for a life a eye for...etc at a time when killing a family entire was not unknown. All Christian Holy Bibles change the original scripture toward the New testemant gospels (that is not a criticism).

It was also believed by ancient Jewish scholars that the death sentance would be so rare in a wholesome society that an individual judge would expect only use it once during his service.

With a heavy heart I tend toward Carl's arguement as society seems out of control, but only in cases where proof is beyond a doubt, not reasonable doubt and something has to be done about the legal system which seems more concerned with itself than the adminstration of justice and ascertaining the truth. Urqh has demonstrated just how fallible justice is in the U.K.

Steve

 

Steve, all I can say is that God forbid, is that until you experiance somethinf terrible in person or that happens to one or more of your family members, friends co-workers and such--that until it happens to you personally, you just will not "get it."

When it does become something very personal to you, you will sing a different tune. I neve thought I would think differently but-back in 1996-something happened that was the last straw-and my mind has been made up forever-about the ins and outs of having a dealth penalty. Someone who was then-my fiancee-was kidnapped and raped and almost killed by the worst kind of bastard out there. Thanks to that incident-and it was nothing to do with anything between us-I never married that gal who was the love of my life.

I soon after, met that jerk in the prison unit I was working in-and the SoB recognized me-told other inmates as much personal info as it knew about me-such as my hometown and appx address. Well, by that time, I had moved about 75 miles away to another smallish type town. How this creep knew where I was from? the creep lived about 1 1/2 blocks away from me-and right across the street from my Fiancee.

This sicko had been a convicted rapist, and child-molester-being convicted at least three times and served in prison before it kidnapped my Fiancee. The last victim it had before it did this to my Fiancee, was a 2 year old little girl-daughter to it's ex-girlfriend.

The story is much longer so ill end it here. The fact was, that until that incident-I too had mostly opposed the dealth penalty and thought it was a waste of tax-payers money. Well, I was basically "converted" over night.

About 4 years before that, and what made me start thinking differently, was when four good friends of mine were killed in a terrible car accident caused by a drunken ILLEGAL ALIEN, who was driving a large flatbet truck loaded with thousands of pounts of pipes header for one of the locl Refineries in Corpus Christi.

It was late atnight and on Chapman Ranch Road-when this drunk caused an accident that be-headed two of my four friends killed that night. My friends would still be alive had this ILLEGAL ALIEN not been here in that capacity.

No Sir-I WILL not change my mind about the dealth penalty-as long as creeps like the two mentioned above are ot there and creating problems. Also, as an ending to that rapist--as per State policy, if an Correctional Officer knew an inmate that is at th unit said Officer worked at-hey were to report that immediately to a Supervisor so that there is no chance of something happening that should not happen.

Well, I only saw this creep a few times out in the world, and it then had a deep suntan, long beard, when I saw it in Prison was when I was one of those who had been picked to work by themselves being the only Rover for 200 inmates-because I id my job to the satisfaction of my supervisors.

Anyway, I was passing out the daily mail at about 6:30 PM, and was in A 5-6 pod 8 finishing up on the mail when one of the inmates in there recognized me and started putting my "business" all over the street. I finished passing out the mail and started to leave when this inmate took it upon itself to try to attack me from behind. I got out of the pod and attempted to close the some 300odd pound door, when it stuck it's arm out trying to keep me from closing the electrically operated door.

I told the SoB that if it didn't remove it's arm, that I was going to smash it with the door in order to keep it from attempting to escape--which was one of the charges it earned that early evening. Needless to say, in the split hair of a second it had to remove it's arm fromthe doorway--I slammed as hard as could against the door. I never saw anyone move so fast.

Needless to say, a Sergeant w camera and back-up was called. We pulled this inmate into the Sallyport and he was re-arrested and hauled off to solitary confinement in AdSeg. About two days later-said inmate was residing in the Roach unit near the Oklahoma border.

On about Dec 16th, a General Court was held-and said inmate was stupidly representing itself. After about 20 minutes of listening to the inmates BS charges against me, the verdict was read he was found guilty of attempted assault on a CO as well as attempted escape as well as attempted of taking hostages of a staff member.

It was sentenced to another lengthy stay in prison, and was heard yelling as it was being dragged out of Court-that when it got out, it was going to find out where I lived and was going to come kill me. The presiding Judge said I could comment-which I did and I said that if that were the ca-that i thanked it for the warning and said that if it ever appeared at my front door-that I would be with my friend Colt and Walther, and that if it made a move against me, that it would have no less than 8 .45 cal rounds in it as well as 8 9mm rounds.

Needless to say, that was in 1996, and I have never seen it or any of its friends since.

Like I say, if things like this happened to you, you would change your mind.

Best regards-C.

 

Steve, all I can say is that God forbid, is that until you experiance somethinf terrible in person or that happens to one or more of your family members, friends co-workers and such--that until it happens to you personally, you just will not "get it."

When it does become something very personal to you, you will sing a different tune. I neve thought I would think differently but-back in 1996-something happened that was the last straw-and my mind has been made up forever-about the ins and outs of having a dealth penalty. Someone who was then-my fiancee-was kidnapped and raped and almost killed by the worst kind of bastard out there. Thanks to that incident-and it was nothing to do with anything between us-I never married that gal who was the love of my life.

I soon after, met that jerk in the prison unit I was working in-and the SoB recognized me-told other inmates as much personal info as it knew about me-such as my hometown and appx address. Well, by that time, I had moved about 75 miles away to another smallish type town. How this creep knew where I was from? the creep lived about 1 1/2 blocks away from me-and right across the street from my Fiancee.

This sicko had been a convicted rapist, and child-molester-being convicted at least three times and served in prison before it kidnapped my Fiancee. The last victim it had before it did this to my Fiancee, was a 2 year old little girl-daughter to it's ex-girlfriend.

The story is much longer so ill end it here. The fact was, that until that incident-I too had mostly opposed the dealth penalty and thought it was a waste of tax-payers money. Well, I was basically "converted" over night.

About 4 years before that, and what made me start thinking differently, was when four good friends of mine were killed in a terrible car accident caused by a drunken ILLEGAL ALIEN, who was driving a large flatbet truck loaded with thousands of pounts of pipes header for one of the locl Refineries in Corpus Christi.

It was late atnight and on Chapman Ranch Road-when this drunk caused an accident that be-headed two of my four friends killed that night. My friends would still be alive had this ILLEGAL ALIEN not been here in that capacity.

No Sir-I WILL not change my mind about the dealth penalty-as long as creeps like the two mentioned above are ot there and creating problems. Also, as an ending to that rapist--as per State policy, if an Correctional Officer knew an inmate that is at th unit said Officer worked at-hey were to report that immediately to a Supervisor so that there is no chance of something happening that should not happen.

Well, I only saw this creep a few times out in the world, and it then had a deep suntan, long beard, when I saw it in Prison was when I was one of those who had been picked to work by themselves being the only Rover for 200 inmates-because I id my job to the satisfaction of my supervisors.

Anyway, I was passing out the daily mail at about 6:30 PM, and was in A 5-6 pod 8 finishing up on the mail when one of the inmates in there recognized me and started putting my "business" all over the street. I finished passing out the mail and started to leave when this inmate took it upon itself to try to attack me from behind. I got out of the pod and attempted to close the some 300odd pound door, when it stuck it's arm out trying to keep me from closing the electrically operated door.

I told the SoB that if it didn't remove it's arm, that I was going to smash it with the door in order to keep it from attempting to escape--which was one of the charges it earned that early evening. Needless to say, in the split hair of a second it had to remove it's arm fromthe doorway--I slammed as hard as could against the door. I never saw anyone move so fast.

Needless to say, a Sergeant w camera and back-up was called. We pulled this inmate into the Sallyport and he was re-arrested and hauled off to solitary confinement in AdSeg. About two days later-said inmate was residing in the Roach unit near the Oklahoma border.

On about Dec 16th, a General Court was held-and said inmate was stupidly representing itself. After about 20 minutes of listening to the inmates BS charges against me, the verdict was read he was found guilty of attempted assault on a CO as well as attempted escape as well as attempted of taking hostages of a staff member.

It was sentenced to another lengthy stay in prison, and was heard yelling as it was being dragged out of Court-that when it got out, it was going to find out where I lived and was going to come kill me. The presiding Judge said I could comment-which I did and I said that if that were the ca-that i thanked it for the warning and said that if it ever appeared at my front door-that I would be with my friend Colt and Walther, and that if it made a move against me, that it would have no less than 8 .45 cal rounds in it as well as 8 9mm rounds.

Needless to say, that was in 1996, and I have never seen it or any of its friends since.

Like I say, if things like this happened to you, you would change your mind.

Best regards-C.

 

Steve, all I can say is that God forbid, is that until you experiance somethinf terrible in person or that happens to one or more of your family members, friends co-workers and such--that until it happens to you personally, you just will not "get it."

When it does become something very personal to you, you will sing a different tune. I neve thought I would think differently but-back in 1996-something happened that was the last straw-and my mind has been made up forever-about the ins and outs of having a dealth penalty. Someone who was then-my fiancee-was kidnapped and raped and almost killed by the worst kind of bastard out there. Thanks to that incident-and it was nothing to do with anything between us-I never married that gal who was the love of my life.

I soon after, met that jerk in the prison unit I was working in-and the SoB recognized me-told other inmates as much personal info as it knew about me-such as my hometown and appx address. Well, by that time, I had moved about 75 miles away to another smallish type town. How this creep knew where I was from? the creep lived about 1 1/2 blocks away from me-and right across the street from my Fiancee.

This sicko had been a convicted rapist, and child-molester-being convicted at least three times and served in prison before it kidnapped my Fiancee. The last victim it had before it did this to my Fiancee, was a 2 year old little girl-daughter to it's ex-girlfriend.

The story is much longer so ill end it here. The fact was, that until that incident-I too had mostly opposed the dealth penalty and thought it was a waste of tax-payers money. Well, I was basically "converted" over night.

About 4 years before that, and what made me start thinking differently, was when four good friends of mine were killed in a terrible car accident caused by a drunken ILLEGAL ALIEN, who was driving a large flatbet truck loaded with thousands of pounts of pipes header for one of the locl Refineries in Corpus Christi.

It was late atnight and on Chapman Ranch Road-when this drunk caused an accident that be-headed two of my four friends killed that night. My friends would still be alive had this ILLEGAL ALIEN not been here in that capacity.

No Sir-I WILL not change my mind about the dealth penalty-as long as creeps like the two mentioned above are ot there and creating problems. Also, as an ending to that rapist--as per State policy, if an Correctional Officer knew an inmate that is at th unit said Officer worked at-hey were to report that immediately to a Supervisor so that there is no chance of something happening that should not happen.

Well, I only saw this creep a few times out in the world, and it then had a deep suntan, long beard, when I saw it in Prison was when I was one of those who had been picked to work by themselves being the only Rover for 200 inmates-because I id my job to the satisfaction of my supervisors.

Anyway, I was passing out the daily mail at about 6:30 PM, and was in A 5-6 pod 8 finishing up on the mail when one of the inmates in there recognized me and started putting my "business" all over the street. I finished passing out the mail and started to leave when this inmate took it upon itself to try to attack me from behind. I got out of the pod and attempted to close the some 300odd pound door, when it stuck it's arm out trying to keep me from closing the electrically operated door.

I told the SoB that if it didn't remove it's arm, that I was going to smash it with the door in order to keep it from attempting to escape--which was one of the charges it earned that early evening. Needless to say, in the split hair of a second it had to remove it's arm fromthe doorway--I slammed as hard as could against the door. I never saw anyone move so fast.

Needless to say, a Sergeant w camera and back-up was called. We pulled this inmate into the Sallyport and he was re-arrested and hauled off to solitary confinement in AdSeg. About two days later-said inmate was residing in the Roach unit near the Oklahoma border.

On about Dec 16th, a General Court was held-and said inmate was stupidly representing itself. After about 20 minutes of listening to the inmates BS charges against me, the verdict was read he was found guilty of attempted assault on a CO as well as attempted escape as well as attempted of taking hostages of a staff member.

It was sentenced to another lengthy stay in prison, and was heard yelling as it was being dragged out of Court-that when it got out, it was going to find out where I lived and was going to come kill me. The presiding Judge said I could comment-which I did and I said that if that were the ca-that i thanked it for the warning and said that if it ever appeared at my front door-that I would be with my friend Colt and Walther, and that if it made a move against me, that it would have no less than 8 .45 cal rounds in it as well as 8 9mm rounds.

Needless to say, that was in 1996, and I have never seen it or any of its friends since.

Like I say, if things like this happened to you, you would change your mind.

Best regards-C.

 

Still not convinced there should be death sentence in the UK, I've heard and seen all the stories before and they never make me reconsider my thought process.

Funny really because when I was younger I thought there should be a death penalty in the UK.

Cheers

 

double post

 

C.Evans

Clive I think you might have missread my post#82 I said

I think most of the regular contributers to WW2f are aware that I don't post things without a reasonable amount of thought and before posting I read the entire thread from post#1. You are admirably tougher than I am with regard to your willingness to share your experiences with others, I too have had some pretty shity things happen close friends,family and myself but I doubt I would be able to open up to the level that you have and that is humbling.

I have a view which many of my close friends are aware of that I believe vengance killing is acceptable but I also believe that if a person commits an act of vengance they surrender themselves immediately into custody for processing and be judged as to the justification at that point it ends, hence my view on the liviticus teaching of "an eye for an eye". Some people regard this as insane- but it will be a cold day in hell before any government would enact such a law.

My final point in Post#82 was in the U.K. the legal system is to put it mildly broken, personally I cannot in concience accept a return to state executions when the legal system is full of self serving, lazy prosecutors who often look for a easy conviction- how do you think we end up with a case like Stefan Kisco a man whose mental age required an appropriate adult to be present during processing and who was firing blanks due to a congenital condition, had they examined seman sample they took from him they would have realised he could not be the aslaient as there was no sperm present in the defendants sample but was present in the evidence pack and that is not exactly rocket science.

Finally just in case anyone mis-interpets what I said my rant is against the legal system not police, correction or law enforcement.

regards

Steve

 

In the words of the Indian terrorist Ghandi.

If we follow the eye for an eye and tooth for tooth, we'll end up blind and toothless.

 

Steve your views are not dissimilar to mine. I dont want capital punishment but agree on the vengance, I'm afraid that is likely human nature. And agree, will then be willing to pay my dues. And I echo completely what you say on the legal system.

I see nothing disagreable with your thought process. On the vengance side, none of us can say what we would do on a personal level. And that is my whole and only argument.

 

Thanks Urqh I thought I'd inadvertantly annoyed another member again.

Steve

 

Lou, If I had a salute left you would get it. Lethal injection, electrocution, hanging and firing squads are impossible to take back if a mistake is made.

That being said; I think there are very few people on death row who were just snatched up off the streets, convicted by a jury of their peers and sentenced to death. Most were already in the purview of the legal system anyway wether for committing the crime they were arrested for or wether they committed another crime, in either case they deserve to be punished.

Brad

 

Steve, in a way I did misinterpret what you said but-I also felt the need to get the otherside of the story out to explain my position. I don't like the idea of a dealth penalty but-in cases like the above--I believe it is necessary.

They say that having a death penalty does not deter crime, which is hog-wash-as I know it does. However, there are always exceptions to the rule coming from certain individuals that care for nothing at all so they feel they can do what they wish to whomever they wish as n their sick minds-it does not matter. However, in most peoples minds-it does matter.

Also, I know that having a dealth penalty does indeed deter SOME from committing even worse crimes-as I have been personally told that by many dozens or hundreds of inmates over the several years I worked for the State.

The ones who don't care about anything-have nothing to lose-so in that aspect-the Death Penalty is not a deterrant. There will always be thouse wo committ acrime knowing or thinking they will get away with it Scott-free. However, most of the time they are quckly captured and then they-the criminal-screams bloody murder and does everything in their powers to stall the legal system. If they are man enough to commit the crime-why can't they be man enough to face whatever punishment is dealt out to them? In all my years working for the system, I have had VERY few inmates actually show remorse to me s well as confess that they knew they were doing somehting horribly wrong and deserved whatever punishment they got. The vast amount who felt THEY were done wrong by being put into prison-are those who do their best to clog up the system as best as they can, they are undisciplined cut-ups and some of those do their best at every turn to make a Correctional Officers job as hard as it can get.

I only had problems with maybr 4-5 inmates over the years. Every single one of them made it loud and clear that they were innocent-they were framed and ddn't belong in proson. In every one of those cases-proved much differently. I even had a WWII Combat veteran who was in B-5-8 dorm who was in for murder-and he everytime he saw me-which was usually when I worked for North Corridor asgate security and traffic control, he always told me-but Mr. Evans-I was framed. After listning to tht for almost two years-I told him that I was disappointed with him and a man of his status (being a self-proclaimed - Convict) that he sure did a lot of crying.

I told him in front of a group of 25 inmates waiting to go for evening chow--that if he was a true convict--he would fess up to the troubles he caused himself as well as others. "REAL" convicts do NOT blame anybody else for their predictament-they fess up to it ans live life day-by-day and are only marking their time till they get released. Real convicts do not give Bosses any trouble--inmates do.

Drew, I don't know about it being possible to have a death penalty in England or the rest of the UK, but just try to see it like I do because of first-hand experience. Put yourself in the place of that 2 year old little girl who was raped repeatedly by that scum of the earth. Put yourself in my place-wouldn't you wan't to see the jerk who raped your fiancee-threatened to kill her, and forced her to do some disgusting things-and the end results were that you never married her-not from fault of anyone but said creep who hurt someone you were so close to-because said creep wanted total control over yet-another victim. Watching over the several months after my ex-fiancee was hurt-and seeing at how it tore her apart inside and out-is like watching a one-of-a-kind rare flower wither and die-because nobody gave it any water.

Though I do currently have someone in my life-I will always have a special place in my heart for that other woman. We were lucky that she managed to escape this ^&&**E*E(W criminal. I do admit-that for several years after her kidnapping and attack-you damned well bet you that I was more than bitter and hateful towards that criminal. I still totally loath its guts as much as I can possibly do-but I do not let that hatred run my life either.

To end, if some criminal sees you as an easy target-you will get hit at somepoint.

 

One issue with the DP is the alternative.

It seems that the alternatives are:

1. State kills criminal

2. Criminal sent to jail for a few years.

If the alternative was liftime imprisonment (ie you terminal breath would be behind bars) there wouldnt be an issue.

Lifetime inprisonment seems to be a joke, since there are so many let out with a beating heart.

And with lifetime inprisonment any faults during investigation or trial can be corrected. When you have had your brains blown out, it's to late to say sorry...

 

No, Carl, I won't 'get' it. Human life is something I do take personally, carefully. I didn't go through Auschwitz or WWI trenches to be teared apart by the horror lived by those who did, and get mad with the perpetrators or regret the overall circumstances. I live thousands of miles away from the African continent, whilst I do get furious about the perennial inhumanity there and the indifference of the rest of the world.

I do grant to you that personal experiences deeply affect people. I knew HIV/AIDS was a worldwide health problem, but I didn't understand until I found myself surrounded with 800 HIV-inffected children under 10-years-old. Then, victims are no longer a statistic and I experienced personally the tragedy of the pandemic.

However, Christianity teaches that pain can transform you, yes, but to humanise, to empathise, to move into action. That happened to me with poor country people and Mayan indigenous, living in absolute misery, who forced a change of ideas and demolished my dogmas and prejudices: 'The poor are lazy and don't work, that's why they're poor', 'Poor ignorant people can't teach you anything'... Now I feel poverty and misery striking my own guts... Now, when these country people were robbed 500 acres of land, all they had and all they live on, by one single man, I felt robbed myself, outraged by the pain suffered by those I loved. Well... that didn't make me want to start an armed revolution... I rather spoke, wrote, dennounced... and got into many problems. Yet revenge didn't cross my mind.

And the exact thing happened with prison inmates, with even stronger, deeper consequences... If befriending a man who murdered his wife can't transform the way you see life and human beings, nothing ever will...

Again, I'll leave someone with more authority than myself make a point, sister Helen Prejean, CSJ, author of the book Dead Man Walking, in her article 'Would Jesus pull the switch?'

 

The Death Penalty. It's like religion and politics...a topic that should never be breached amongst friends. I, personally, and for the death penatly. Always have been, always will be. I live in a state currently that does not have the death penalty, and every day I read about people that deserve it. 20 years is the life(lol) sentence here. So....20 years in prison is a good trade for a human life? I guess if you just commit murder young enough, hey, you served your sentence and now everything is ok! Go on about your business, friend. Hard to find a job as a convicted murderer? Too bad...why, you're young enough, just commit another crime and go back to prison! The tax payers will support you and feed you and house you. Wait, you want to be a productive member of society and even got some public tax payer funded education in prison? That's great! I hope you go into the field that your victim would have chosen so you can replace them, you murdering bastard! The justice system in this country and turned into a bleeding heart joke. Prisons are full of people who shouldn't be there, and they are letting people out who should never see the light of day. 50 years for a coke dealer, 3 years for a rapist???? Sorry but the junky buying coke had a choice, the rape victim did not. Take some of this bailout money we are crapping at these asshole CEO's and start re-testing DNA evidence on death row inmates. I bet you'd have a lot of the convictions held up. Once that is done, shuffle them down to the execution chamber.

 

This thread is like ground hog day now.....If you go back 95 posts they are virtually the same as whats being posted now.

Same old stories and the same old arguments.

Thankfully there will never be a death penalty in the UK all the time we are signed upto the human rights act and thankfully the UK and probably the rest of European Community will never leave it.

Cheerio