German vs. Russia - No England.

The Germans and the Italians won't be of much use; they have no military presence here, so they are no threat whatsoever. Japanese help means a Japanese invasion; this will very probably lead to a declaration of war from the Americans.

The strike North would be a real gamble; especially holding in mind that the earlier two clashes the Japanese had with the Russians weren't exactly succesful. It's a longshot...
It would help the Germans more in their effort to defeat the Russians than that Japan would gain from it. It also would imply that Japan negates their neutrality pact with the Russians; it is farfetched.
And this attack might trigger a declaration of war from the US as well...

Could be...it's IMO an interesting one...problem is that Japan is a seapower and not a landpower. I would like to know if, in the instance Japan DOES attack Russia, Stalin dares to plead for help from the US?

 

The German and Italian fleets are more than a match for the Dutch fleet in the DEI.

 

Could any of the Italian surface vessels have even reached the DEI? Other than the Spee and sisters the same question holds concerning the Germans.

 

They would be operating out of East Africa and likely Vichy ports too.

 

There's the infrastruture for them to do so? The can reach the east Indies from Africa? In a discussion of Sea Lion not to long ago it was pointed out that the Italians would have a hard time moving their fleet to the Atlantic coast of France let alone to the Pacific. German ships also weren't known for thier long legs and neither has the infrastructure in place to support such ops. Indeed the Russians had more and better infrastructure when they sent their fleet to the Pacfic and that didn't end up very well for them did it?

 

I thought they did stop the Moscow winteroffensive and I don't think the PD were very useful in the winter of 1941-1942;there is also the question how the Germans would supply 3 more PD .
About the original question,I think the Russians had the best chance to win :in 1941(without L-L )they stopped the German offensive .
The question is :would the Wehrmacht be stronger than it was in reality in 1941? Don't forget that,even if Britain fell out,the Germans would need occupation forces .
Btw :is the scenario that Britain is out AFTER the BoB,or is there no BoB?

 

Next to the question if it's feasible at all for them to get there (look at LWD's posts!), why in heaven's name would they send both their fleets to the other side of the world? It doesn't strike me as being a strategic wise decision, because the Germans (and Italians) should be pretty sure about the fact that England won't come back in the game again.
As I said, for the sake of the thread I assume that the UK will withhold itself from any actions, but with this happening; I don't know...the Brits could become a real harassment in this situation for the Germans if they wanted...

Also, again, the US would frown upon these states to interfere with affairs in the Pacific, meaning that Germany and Italy risk a declaration of war from the US.

To conclude: the idea of German and Italian fleets operating in the Pacific seems ridiculous to me!

 

I've presupposed that the BoB did not take place giving the Germans the best chance against the Russian...again, for sake of this thread.

 

Yes what was I thinking they are nothing compared to the mighty long ranged Dutch fleet.

 

The idea would be to take back the DEI for the Nazi backed Dutch government.
However as I said it is likely the Japanese would do this instead as with Indo-China in OTL.

 

At least the Dutch have one of the best equipped bases in Asia at their disposal with Naval Base Surabaja.
You just have to face that the idea of the KM and the RM roaming Pacific waters is pure fiction;

1) Their capability to get in the Pacific waters is very questionable (not the right vessels, not the right entourage of support vessels needed to keep the vessels in operation, and overall lack of infrastructure). Have you ever looked on a map at the distance from Abessinia to the East Indies?
2) A gang up by three nations on the territory of a sovereign nation would never be acceptable in the eyes of the Americans. I doubt that they will watch from the side if (lets say the KM and RM *ARE* capable of getting to the Pacific) those two powers are steaming towards the Asian theatre. What are the Germans and Italians gonna say: "No worries, we just gonna invade the East Indies, that's all! Just relax and sit back!". Strategy wasn't perhaps the Axis' greatest forte, but a stupidity like this they wouldn't make...

Notice that I still go along (for the sake of this thread) with the fact that England and the Commonwealth uphold their neutrality.
However, if you could enlighten us on the exact terms the Germans have made in your opinion with England that could shed some light on the UK position in this whole affair.

 

A Nazi backed Dutch government which is probably only recognized by the Axis countries...

So Japan would risk probable war with the US through that maneuver? Quite possible, but we know how that will end...

 

This is btw an interesting scenario; I don't know if Stalin could be duped that way, but it sure is an intriguing outline for a "what if"...
Heroic nazis fighting the evil commies!? :evil2:

This would be a real insidious way of Hitler to gain Lebensraum...

 

Somehow I don't see what the Germans in the DEI have anything to do with the opening topic;

Get this thread on track or it will be closed.

 

Did this thread ever even meet the requirements of this board?

 

Tomcat, I guess the focus (at the moment) lies on the DEI and the Pacific in general, because what happens there might have repercussions for the outcome on the Eastern Front, you simply can't see those two things apart from each other.

But I understand your problem (as LWD also touched upon)...the initial framework where this thread was based upon was a bit shoddy (ie. too many loose ends).

And hey, Germans in the DEI??? It's not that we've hit the topic of Nazi Amazon Women on the Moon......yet...

 

Yes, the situation you present here not only closes the active front in the west but it also opens the Axis to trade with the US and South America which is just as significant. Also you need to look at the impact on Syria (Vichy), Iran and Iraq as well as Turkey.

I think they could have militarily, but the political isolation would likely lead to a collapse. If they survived Operation Barbarossa, I don't see them surviving 1942 due to increased Axis strength and no Lend Lease. Syria was Vichy/Axis and Iraq and Iran were pro-axis, so it is possible for Axis troops to head for Baku or at least bomb it from the South while Case Blue unfolds to the North. This and the absence of Lend Lease oil would starve the Red Army/Air Force of fuel.

 

You do remember that Baku I had been cemented shut by the Soviets themselves in late 1941, and the entire system was a NON-PRODUCER through the war years, don't you? Stalin's man did such a good job of closing the wells that they themselves couldn't get them back into production until some time after the autumn of 1945. The entire produciton came from Baku II on the eastern shore of the Caspian, not the western shore.

As to the Persia (Iran), Iraq territory, the majority of the population wasn't so much pro-Axis as a small group was anti-British. The Free French immediately took possession of the lands under French mandate, and threw the Vichy French out. When the anti-British uprising took place in Persia/Iraq the USSR sent troops down from the Caspian and took control of the northern half of the territory and they stayed there throughout the war, and didn't withdraw until after 1946.

They had promised to leave the area post-war, and they did keep that promise. They also promised to leave North Korea, and they actually did that on time as well. Which was one of the reasons that we Americans also removed the bulk of our troops from Korea. Just in time for the North to invade the South, and why we were so easily thrown back to Pusan. Very few troops left "in country", no tanks to speak of, and no aircraft worth mentioning.

Whether or not these things would have played out as they did historically without the US in the mix, that is a problematic proposal. However I just don't see how to keep us (America) out of it for the length of time necessary for the Germans to bring the Soviets to the table.

 

Great info, thanks Clint.

 

Again this thread is about the Eastern Front I.E, the 'Germans vs Russians - No England'. Therefore the German or Italian Fleets being in the DEI has no real effect on the Campaign in the East and therefore does not meet the requirements for this thread, if you wish create another thread relevant to your current discussion they by all means go a head.

Again I say, get this thread back on track IE, the Germans Vs The Russians - No England, in the Eastern theater or face closure of this thread.