I am constantly amazed,...

at the number of people, supposedly intellegent people, who continue to espouse that Nazism wasn't as bad as all that, and that the Holocaust is really the Holohoax. Not just the Iranian President, but others in areas of Europe who simply should know better.

There is another Austrian author (I cannot post links to either the article or portions of the article), who is on trial and facing 20 years if convicted.

He has already been convicted of one "denial event", and fled Austria to avoid jail time. Now recaptured, he is on trial again. Goto the AP and find the article since I cannot seem to post any "cut and paste" at all. I get a "Explorer has shut down" message each time I try to post, or rather paste here.

This has been going on and off since last week. It is rather bothersome, and I realize Otto has been working on a new server or something, but being "kicked off" every time I try to post an article link, or anything else I have found on the net is getting frustrating to say the least.

Ah well, I'm too computer dumb to know why it happens, and I cannot post the "message" I get from my IE7, since I cannot paste anything!

 

Is this the guy, Clint?

Revisionist Toben found guilty | JTA - Jewish & Israel News

 

I haven't found many people who deny the Holocaust, by I find more and more everyday who think 'the Jews' are manipulating its memory to gain more power... or that Israel's actions against the Palestines, are, plain and simple, equal to the Holocaust...

I think that is as disturbing as denial. It's sheer, pure anti-semitism.

 

The fellow I was referring to is named Gerd Honsik, the author of the book Hitler Innocent? ; and he fled to Spain in 1997 when he was convicted on another charge. He was recaptured in 2007, and now is standing trial for disseminating denial blogs on the internet.

 

Is this the man (and I use the term "man" lightly) you were referring too?

Jerusalem Post

 

Without wishing to get off track, Isreals actions against the Pals are nothing like the same league as the holocaust.

That is no reason why people should not be concerned about Isreals actions in that area.
Many Isrealis are themselves inculding soldiers old and new. And Jewish folk around the world.

No one can call anyone who objects to Isreals actions at times an anti semit...thats far too easy and lets them off the hook when doing wrong on occasions.

No country no matter their history, religion or alliance ro my own has a right to exclusion of international laws and basic moralities. My own included in that.

 

I am also "amazed" , it's about the fifth similar thread I read today about this subject. They are all the same . Deniers are idiots , the subject has been discussed over and over again. I know they shoud be mentioned to show how stupid they are, but puting them and the SS in the spot lights over and over again is getting tirying. Oh yes, and modern policies about Israel has nothing to do with this thread.
Keep this on topic or I will close this one too.

 

I go along with that.

 

wow fifth?

 

i am thinking thee same way,the isrealians are milking the houlacast dry!which is not giving the isrealians jews a good name,i am a firm believer of "two wrongs don't make a right"scenerio.

 

Im with Skip here, I'm not a mod, but the original intent of this thread is justifiable.
And worth airing.

But then when other matters are brought into the argument, then it attracts totally different arguments and harms the original thread.

Me being guilty as charged. But I dont like to see things go past without challenge.
Other matters should be discussed in Freezone, if there even....I'll never open a thread on it even in there but will defend an opposite point of view.

Its just a pity because the Holocaust deniers do need to be taken on and shown for what they are. But we can do that and raised threads without bringing other more political thngs onto what are originally worthwhile threads.

That said I'll retire from this and hope the holocaust is remembered properly and not as to what happens in other areas.

 

I too have to say "no excuse sir" on that one as well, which is a problem as there is something on this thread that needs addressing.

I was however under the understandng that this forum was for the

Which would cover many matters with regard to Israel such as holocaust denial and as far as I aware no-one has moved off the topic posted by a well regarded WW2f Veteran.

~Steve

 

There is nothing like whipping it up and doing harm, right David Irving?

We are above these people as we see the truth and they can not or will not or will never except the facts of what happened.

 

I tend to agree. Although I must point how I believe the Holocaust Industry is a dangerous scam, however when I use that phrase I'm referring to it as invented by Finkelstein in "The Holocaust Industry". Sadly and inconveniently there's been no small hijacking and exploitation of the basic concept so it becomes, in part, another arrow in the bigots' quiver.

 

I don't get it either and wish I had a better handle on what's behind that phenomenon. I can't say that I run across this is my day to day life, but it seems rampant on just about any internet forum I have ever visited. Certainly there are also these high profile cases like you referenced, which are few but garner a lot of press.

This does beg the question of just how many people truly feel this way? One would be too many, I agree but is this actually a large or growing belief or does it just appear that way because of the information age?

I don't want to divert the thread, but I have also seen similar trends regarding the Japanese and their role in WWII, the Allies being the bad guys, etc. Again, even one or two cases are disturbing, I just don't have a handle on how prevalent this really is.

 

I must say I never noticed much Japanese revisionism from this side of the pond perhaps more noticeable in U.S.A. and from the Chinese people I know I don't think they have changed their minds much.

~Steve

 

I have always regarded the authors of Holocaust denial books and web pages as being pretty much of the same ilk as the those who write about Nazi bases in Antarctica and flying saucers emblazoned with swastikas. I disagree with the Austrian and German laws making it a crime to write about such things and think that putting Holocaust deniers on trial simply lends a false credence to their efforts. I can't imagine that the books/web sites would be of much interest anyway, and the trials merely boost readership.

Thus, in some ways, such trials are counter-productive and actually harmful. People are going to believe what they want to regardless of what government wants them to believe, so it's a waste of time trying to legislate people's beliefs and actually outs those governments on the same level as authoritarian states. Are there significantly more Holocaust deniers per capita in countries which have no laws against denying the Holocaust? I don't think so.

 

Devilsadvocate

You live in a country with a well defined constitution therefore it would be difficult to enact a denial law, which is good. I concure with your points for the most part but think that the German laws mentioned and the anti swastika, salute and imagry laws have there place for about maybe 100years by 2050 they should not be necessary.

I despare when U.K. politicans say we should have a denial law.

~Steve

 

I'm not so sure. We have laws, unconstitutional in my opinion, that proscribe certain language pertaining to racial and religious expression, called "hate speech" laws. As disgusting as some speech is, the Constitution does not protect just admirable sentiments, it protects ALL speech whether that speech expresses laudable ideas or otherwise.

I disagree that the state has any right in a democratic republic to coerce thought or expression and that is exactly what Germany and Austria are doing. That places them squarely in the ranks of authoritarian states. They are doing precisely what North Korea does to it's citizens. It matters not whether they are doing it for ostensibly noble purposes, or simply to perpetrate the power of certain individuals, it is equally harmful.

Ideas should be countered with ideas, not repression.