ok u ww2 lovers i need help! :S

Heidi · Apr 24, 2009

razin said:

Heidi

This attachment shows appoximately 150 tanks of the 1st armoured Divison in June 1941, there were a total of about 400 tanks in the U.S. forces at that time. One of the reasons this photo was taken was that it almost correctly matches the number of tanks available in 1939 including the 8 1st class Medium tanks medium M2 available on September 3rd 1939.
The only good thing was that the ordnance had spent much of it time developing components that could be rapidly adapted for war use.
View attachment 6072

The air force was in a similar situation and the Navy was better off but was short of Destroyers and Personnel. No doubt other members who are more naval and aircraft orientated might fill in any gaps.

Steve
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Jagernaut said:

Hey Heidi,

I think you are making opinions on this by looking thru modern glasses. The USA was a very differant country back then. In most respects it truly lived up to the view of being a republic of true democracy. And it's people were wholesome and lived with a simple phylosophy. It was the rest of the world governments that were complicated and confused.

And that is why the USA saved the world back then. And that is probably why we can look back at it and make our opinions good and bad. Sadly, in my humble opinion, the USA in modern times has joined the ranks of Europe and the rest of the world goverments. Which is to govern in a complicated and often confusing manner.
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Devilsadvocate said:

In the US, the government listens to the public once every four years.

Roosevelt knew the US Public didn't want to go to war in 1939, and he knew he was facing a very uncertain election in 1940. He also realized that if he went too far towards involving the US in a European war, he would no longer be part of the government after the 1940 election.

Roosevelt very much wanted to declare war on Germany in 1939; he wasn't using public opinion as an "excuse" to remain neutral. But he was bound by the constraints of the US political system, and US laws which required the US to stay neutral. I don't know if you realize it, but the President of the US cannot declare war; only the US Congress has that power, and they face reelection every two years!
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Devilsadvocate said:

It would have been wrong (and contrary to principles of international law such as the law of neutrality) for The US to involve itself in what was essentially Europe's business in 1939.

The US was NOT allied with Britain, France, Poland, or any other European country in 1939.

The US had NOT given "assurances" or any form of promise to assist Poland, or any other European country, prior to the German attack on Poland.

EVERY country in the world, including Britain, France, Poland, and Germany acts ONLY in it's own self interest. Governments would be derelict in their legal duties to their own citizens if they did not do so.

In 1939, the Roosevelt administration perceived Nazism as a threat to the US and the western democracies, and was busy trying to convince the US public of the truth of this matter. But in reality, Germany had not overtly or directly threatened any legitimate US interests and had not committed any act that could be seen, from the US perspective, as an act of war. The US had no causes belli to declare war on Germany.

Britain, acting in what was perceived as it's own best interests, had given assurances to France that it would assist France in any war with Germany, and had also given assurances that it would come to Poland's aid if Poland was attacked by Germany. Therefore Britain was morally and ethically obligated to declare war on Germany, when Germany attacked Poland. Despite Britain's assurances to Poland, Britain rendered no direct assistance to Poland when it was attacked by Germany; the only thing Britain could do was declare war. After the war, Britain ignored Poland's pleas for help and forgot the fact that Britain had guaranteed Poland's independence. Britain was, as all nations do, looking out for it's own best interests.

The United States realized that Germany was a threat to the US, and took steps to guarantee that Britain would not be defeated, as a British defeat would expose the US to an even greater threat. But it was not in the US best interests to declare war on Germany until that country directly threatened the US. This did not happen until Germany declared war on the US in December, 1941. For over a year before that, the US had been bending neutrality laws to the limit to aid Britain and was already in an undeclared naval war with Germany in the Atlantic. The United States, most emphatically, DID NOT turn it's back on Britain at any time.

The United States is populated by people with origins from around the world; France and Britain are represented among these nations, but so are Germany, Italy, Japan, China, Africa, India, and dozens of other cultures and countries. No one can expect the US to base it's foreign policy decions on favoring one or another of these nations. In fact, if the US were to do so, logic would have dictated that America remain neutral throughout the entire war.

No one wants to "mock" you, but it is appropriate to point out some facts of which you seem to be blissfully unaware. America's contribution in WW II went far beyond simply supplying the implements of war. Americans shed their blood to resolve a crises that should have been prevented by firm European diplomacy and European military pressure (as opposed to appeasement), before it reached the stage of open warfare. The US was careful in the interwar years to mind it's own business and not take sides in European squabbles; this proved to be a mistake, but one made with the best of intentions. To say the US "did some little good" in WW II is an astounding misstatement of the truth.
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Triple C said:

Hm. FDR was voted into office. At his second term things weren't looking very good for him as he and the Congress were at a deadlock over the New Deal, economic recovery had stalled, and his critics were accusing him of dragging America into war--which he was, intentionally. The Americans did not want to fight, had no standing obligation to any of the nations of Europe as Britain or France had, and many Americans still see this new war as a dispute between imperialist powers--so why get involved?

Great Britain, be it said, had been concerned with the rise of Nazi Germany even under Chamberlain and did not neglect their armies to the extend the Americans had in the interwar period. Polland's army was bigger than America's.
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Slipdigit said:

The US didn't have a dog in the fight. As Clint stated, the US was not bound by any treaties to come to the aid of the warring countries.

There was an extroidinarily strong isolationist faction in the country that advocated that the US stay out of European affairs. With the election coming up in 1940, Roosevelt and the Democrat-controlled Congress did not want to do anything to tilt the voters away from them. Roosevelt's domestic policies, while having a feel-good appearance about them, had done little to reverse the economic decline that had beset the country and had left him vulnerable to losing the election.
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ok,i reade all the post maybe i was abit hard on america/americans.
maybe i belong on the what if's sections. don;t yuuo think?

LRusso216 · Apr 25, 2009

Heidi, don't apologize for your opinions. Although many (including myself) might disagree, it helps the debate move forward. No one can fault you for having a different view of events. Variety of ideas is healthy.

Keep posting your honest thoughts, they are appreciated.

Dr.Sardonicus · May 1, 2009

Devilsadvocate said:

In the US, the government listens to the public once every four years.
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Except in the state of Florida

Dr.Sardonicus · May 1, 2009

Jagernaut said:

It was actually the Zimmermand letter that was the final straw. Germany conspired with Mexico to attack the USA from the south with the promise of reclaiming lands the USA supposedly stole from Mexico.
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Think that was the first world war... and the Kaiser... not Hitler. Someone else know that one?

Btw, Devilsavocate - great post of explaining Congress... I am Canadian, but 1/2 my family is American and I used to live in VT... I always enjoy learning more of the government structure in the US.

Devilsadvocate · May 1, 2009

Dr.Sardonicus said:

Except in the state of Florida
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In the case of Florida, the politicians listen once every four years.......but all they hear is an unintelligible babel......

marc780 · May 23, 2009

thanks. so i have some q's i dont really know and need help with.
Was the US right in not declaring war when France and Britain did? At that point was the war any less America's responsibility?

What were some of the hardships faced by ordinary American's on the home front during ww2?
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Firstly i need to put forth something, personally i do not LOVE world war 2, since no sane man loves war! I love kids, doggies and kitties but i very emphatically HATE war. (Your question implies insensitivity so please rephrase in future...since if i had a magic wand and could eliminate war forever i would wave it! For anyone involved in it, NOTHING good comes from war!)

That said, here's my two cents on you questions

Was the US right in not declaring war when France and Britain did? At that point was the war any less America's responsibility?
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The war was NEVER America's responsibility. That type of global-think was alien to Americans until the 1960's. America was until that period, more or less isolationist and for good reason - America was founded by people who were fleeing "foreign wars" and the flawed ideas of Europe. The USA entered World War 1 only upon great provocation, the U boats (yes they had them even in 1918) were sinking american ships. When the US entered the war, they achieved great results in a very short time, and turned the tide for the British and French (who were very war weary and had suffered huge casualties for little reason). Yet even in the relatively short time the US fought, the horrors of the world war made a major impression. After Americans started coming home dead, mutilated, and blinded or maimed by gas, this simply affirmed traditional American attitude towards European wars - terribly costful, not worth the cost, and very far away.

When Hitler started WW2 by attacking Poland, this attitude had changed very little. America was still in the Great Depression and few people thought that adding misery over misery would help anything. There was a strong anti-war movement (even Hitler was busy adding fuel to the fire) and plenty of maimed veterans still around, in case anyone was on the fence. Roosevelt realized this and knew that it would take nothing but a direct attack to get America into the frey. I do not believe Roosevelt wanted US involvement in the war but he also realized the US could not remain neutral forever. When Pearl Harbor happened, there was no moe debate since Americans had been attacked and killed. Hitler foolishly declared war on the US three days later (reasons why not to ever put one man in charge) even though he had no real reason to do so, since, in retrospect, the alliance yielded nothing at all.

Hardships faced by Americans on the homefront? Rationing and watching your men go off to war and die. Except for Pearl Harbor, American civilians were thankfully, spared the violence. (War dead, Germany, over 2 million (military only), Japan, about 2.5 million (military only), Russia, 20 million or more(add civilians and the total has been estimated at 30 million or more). USA, about 500,000.)

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ok u ww2 lovers i need help! :S

Heidi Dishonorably Discharged

LRusso216 Graybeard Staff Member

Dr.Sardonicus Member

Dr.Sardonicus Member

Devilsadvocate Ace

marc780 Member

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