Blacksnake Actually before posting #72 i looked the CDC web site which Brndirt1 posted near the beginning of the Thread and went onto other sites to see if what they said is generally accepted and H1N1 is believed to be the current pathogen obviously they will have to check over and over again to ensure it is not mutating. In 1918 the so called Spanish flu pandemic actually started in the Far East (China) and may have gotten to Europe by a number of methods. 1). It mutated in to birds (avian flu) 2). It was brought in by a human carrier (Chinese labour was used on the Western front) 3). It was brought in on pigs kept specifically for slaughter by Chinese Labourers in France at a time when food was not as homogenous as it is now and indigenous peoples often brought their own live stock especially for festivals such as New Year (February for Chinese). As it was, the H1N1 strain unknown in Europe at that time ran from April 1918 to 1921 possibly 1922 in several mutations (or it could not have lasted that long). With a population without antibodies to the flu it ravaged the Western World from California to the Urals Northern Canada to South Africa and possibly elsewhere. It can be traced as a day by day movement along railway tracks that took soldiers home from the War from December 1918. Thereafter the pathagen remained in the western population with regular outbreaks of normal intensity and although mutated is as much a direct ancestor of its grand parents as are you or I. There are still investigations into its pathology to this day hence the lurid story of the Lead coffin which was in Yorkshire if I remember correctly. Pathologists have also dug up remains buried in Northern Canada where bodies had been frozen in perma frost. The purpose of this is to get a H1N1 family tree to see the difference if any - consider how many generations have passed in flu time then read your Darwin. I did not say that I said I know I write bollocks but try to read it, it humors me ~Steve
The original strain of the Spanish Flu appeared in the spring/summer of 1918 and was not as virulent at that point as it later became. It was pretty much a common influenza, as far as mortality is concerned. As it progressed, it changed rapidly into the form that killed so many the winter of 1918-19 and then later into a form that didn't kill. Many strains of the rhinovirus (common cold) used to kill it's hosts. But since it killed what it needed to live, it's progress was pretty much self-limiting, which is what quarantining tries to help promote. Flu vaccines are pretty much a crap shoot. H. Influenza goes through a huge number of generations each day and mutates rather rapidly and combines easily with other viruses. Each year, the vaccine developers make an educated guess (very educated, mind you) as to what the mutated forms will be that year and develop vaccines against the expected mutations. Most times the immunologists hit, sometimes they don't. They generally do as well as can be expected, considering the ability of H. Influenza virus to mutate and combine. Immunologists cannot control all the variables. Also, don't assume that because you were vaccinated today, that you are protected tomorrow from acquiring the illness. You aren't. It takes a good three months for you to produce antibodies in response to a vaccination or other exposure to viruses.* Therefore, if this virus spreads rapidly, odds are that it will reach you long before the vaccination you got today will do you much of any good, which is about mid-July or later. So, next year, when you go to get your flu vac, get it as early as it is available, September if possible, so that you will be fully armed by the time the flu season hits in Jan-Feb. *Since it takes 3 months to produce antibodies to a viral exposure, that HIV test you took only tells you that you didn't have HIV three months ago, as it only tests for the presence of antibodies to the virus and not the presence of the virus itself.
great point slipdigit like you just established it takes a long time for the vaccine to to get active
The wheels are starting to come off the scaremonger's bandwagon- BBC NEWS | World | Americas | Mexico to re-test swine flu cases So it apparently hasn't killed "hundreds" in Mexico- just SEVEN. Not that the British government missed the chance to scaremonger either- BBC NEWS | UK | UK homes to get swine flu advice
I was joking, I knew that...But you got more chance of getting ill eating pork in Mcdonalds than the Giggling Sausage, but thats a Mcdonald thing and not the swine flu...Blimey..if I thought it had got into the food chain I'd never eat another pensioner again.
Giggling sausage im getting worried about you Urqh and eating pensioners you been watching soylent green again
I should really have quantified that one...Only Spanish Pensioners, as they had a flu all of their own...then again..didnt the Chinese...brings a whole new meanng to the words, I'm going for a Chinese. Giggling Sausagee? Welsh have them dont they....greasy fry up breakfast cafe's....Best sawdust sausage this side of Margate. On another note, my old mum used to make sausages factory style, and fish fingers, and all the other stuff like that for a certain sea captain with a birds eye veiw of things....we wont even go into those stories..
wtid is just upset that once the Zombie apocalypse starts, LiverCESSpool will be nuked immediately, thus eradicating 99% of the worlds zombies/undesirables. See, told you the Swine Flu was nothing to worry about. Now every case of the Flu is being reported as the Swine Flu.
Its not swine flu its the Americas flu as its no longer a danger to Pigs. All Zombies are presently unable to get out of california as their leader and great zombie look alike governor has declared a state of emergency...God knows what would have happened if the west coast had ever been bombed by Japs, but thats a what if not a what is....Silver bullets dont work on Liverpool folk, we have a unbendable shield of wit that deflects all sarcasm, being as we invented it in the first place. American swine? The pigs not the folk...I dont rate their chances of dying of old age.
By August 1918 flu deaths were being noticed in casualty evacuation stations on the Western Front especially in the Australian forces in the Albert area, but no doubt this was due to superior reporting by ANZAC Corps. ~Steve
However sometimes more deadly is not counter productive. Witnes cholera. Well that can be debated but flu isn't the problem. I've also heard it was traced to an individual who lived on a farm near one of the big US army bases at the time. There are also indications that there may have been two or three strains that all hit at the same time. I never saw a claim that it killed hundreds. Indeed the claims here seamed to be similar to what I was seeing for the most part: http://www.pitt.edu/~super1/lecture/lec34601/012.htm In part it may be weather or not you define a death due to post infection pneumonia as due to the flu or not. Note that there has now been a death in the US ascribed to the swine flu.
I take your point there are always exceptions, but as a general rule none leathal infection either respiritory or skin carried is a better option -but there is a tendency to anthropomorphize virus. . I should have said "no more dangerous to eat than previously" personally I wouldn't touch it with a sharpe stick. There are quite a number of different stories, it would depend where the U.S. Army base was and whether the spread could be shown to eminate from AEF training areas in Europe. If this base was in USA then it is probably not the lethal pathogen as the lethal spread can be plotted from home comming troops in USA and Canada from December 1918 onward. Your point on strains It was still H1N1 and certainly it mutated -which can be refered to as a strain, but normally strain means somthing like H2 or H5(that being the recent Hong Kong bir flu). ~Steve
Well in that case I see a bit more where you are coming from. Some of the media here may have been doing the same thing but I tend to igonore the TV "news" as it doesn't seam like it really is anymore. NPR at least tries to be impartial (at least Morning Edition and All Things Considered) and gives enough accurate information to make it worthwhile. *** edited for clarity ***
The story I read which seamed well documented was that a teenager I believe who lived on a farm near the base came down with it and was hospitalized in the city near the base. The base was one of the major training ones and was ramping up to send US troops over seas. A fair number contracted the flue and carried it over to Europe. They would also obviously have brought it back with them. It could also be that the leathal effects were due to a combination of flus one taking advantage of the weakening of the immune system due to the other or an opertunistic bacterial infection. The later is a fairly common cause of pneumonia from what I understand. I've caught pneumonia a couple of times after first coming down with the flu. The latter was comparitvly mild the former got pretty bad but the rapid response to antibiotics point to it being opertunistic bacteria in both cases. That's also what I suspect in many of the Mexican fatalities.
Lwd Thanks for the reply, it is perfectly possible that a Flu virus moved from the States as you suggest. the "killer" phase however started in Europe and many other historians and scientist regard the Far East as a start point, perhaps the spread could move across the Pacific for that matter. The Bird flu synopsis is favoured by scientists, I got a fair bit of flak from a friend who works in pharmesutical development for my thoughts on this, but hell what do I know several of my friends are D-Phils and tend to regard me as a technican- you've seen "Big Bang Theory" well I'm waiting on them calling me Wallowits. The odd thing about the Spanish Flu of 1918 was that it hit people who were outside the normal parameters, many throughout 1919 were the fit soldiers and civilians in the 18 to 29 catergory not children infirm and older people. Most people surcom to the usual oportunistic bacterial infections that cause pneumonia, which is the real worry even today as we have over used anti-biotics and seem to be over using anti-virals too. Regards Steve
