If the Germans had captured Moscow, what do you think would have happened?

The WW1 doctrine was quite offensive as well, one thing is doctrine, the other is practical circumstances. And yes, they did not want to repeat the same carnage in WW1, therefore the doctrine was based in more or less mobile warfare.

Problem was having a sclerotic High Command who believed the utmost in daring was to make an 'offensive' movement into Belgium and defend there, and providing a decent wireless communications network, but that's another matter.

Back to topic, then...

 

I think that if the Germans had captured Stalingrad it would have had a far more serious effect than if the Germans took Moscow; Stalingrad opened up the oil fields to what is now Chechnya and the huge oil-producing city, Grozny. It would ahve been a huge leap for the Germans, because they would not have to wait for fuel anymore that came from Germany. They could produce oil-wielding stations in southern Russia for thier tanks.

Grozny and Stalingrad were far more valuable in terms of industry than Moscow.

 

(As)If Moskva would fall, it could have had a massive impact on the USSR. The political side and the mood of the people is hard to asess, but it could have meant a sue for peace.

Another what if is how the Soviet citizens would have reacted to the Nazi brutality.

No matter what Hr. Hitler may have said about wanting years of guerilla war in the east, it would have been a disaster for Germany. Their occupational armies would have been bleed white.

In my opinion Op. Barbarossa is a clear example of mankinds stupidity, and inability to learn from history.

 

Hufflepuff, I'm sure you haven't noticed, but we have already discussed this very matter here more than once. There was no way the Germans could have extracted any useful quantities of refined products from the Caucasus oilfields, let alone moved it over.

This judging mainly by their performance at the Donbass mines and the Maikop oilfields. Nothing came out!

 

You fail to realise that the Soviets would have blown those oil refineries and oil wells to kingdom come, even if the Germans had have captured them they would take at least 12 months to reactivate, so i would expect that if there is no substantial shift in the front lines the oil will begin flowing by late 43 to early 44, not only doest that have to occur but for any German and Axis forces to keep the status quo on the front it would have to capture the entire A-A Line.

 

it is know known that if hitler had chosen to go for moscow rather than securing his flanks Stalin would have surrendered. Stalin considered seriously to surrender once he saw how blitzkrieg effevtiveness swapped his army on summer. If the war in russia was won then the most of the industrial power would have been poured in the the western front and the allies would have been unable to reach germany

 

Is that so.....

Perhaps a source?

 

This is totally new to me and I know I haven't seen anything on this before. I would love to see the source(s) for this too. Or is this just your opinion. And if it is why do you think he would have even thought of it?

 

A severe blow, maybe a critical blow, but a knock out blow never, this may surprise some fore i have always thought that this would be the case but Za Rodinu has convinced me otherwise also Stalin surrendering i very much doubt it, The remnants of the Soviet Red Army would pull behind East of the River Volga and then deploy its Stavka Reserves in depth. (I am ussuming that Stalingrad and Leningrad is also captured). But even with that the Germans to effectively kill off the Soviets once and for all still has to destroy the Red Army and the growing Red Airforce and not only that launch deep air raids against the Soviet Industrial centres east of the Urals. The Luftwaffe did not have any aircaft capable to do it, not even the much vaunted Me-264 Amerika Bomber could do it as it was a lemon even after two years the thing gave problems that never were fixed, No Germany could not hope to win a war of attritian against the Soviets while it was fighting a second (Italy) and a third (N-W Europe) front. Yes my opinion has changed to what i had previously.

 

Plus how would the Germans be able to sustain such a long front (using vonRunstedt's scenario) with proper reserves. The sheer length of the defensive line would be to great for the germans to defend effectively, as well as dealing with partisans that would be operating in the entire german countolled russia.

 

they should have streamed past the urals into siberia.

 

who the germans? if so my point is how could the germans sustain that move while defending the north from the russians.

 

well, they couldn't have. the plan was for the northern force to veer south and encircle moscow but the grander plan was for von leeb to stream past the urals. army group center was bogged down because of guderian's recommendation to swing south while still in ukrain to encircle budeny's 600,000. the fall of kiev was the most spectacular land victory in history but it delayed the march to moscow by more than 3 weeks.

 

ok but this is about what if moscow had fallen from the attacks and the atfermath of that not about what did happen.

 

the germans would have held moscow because it was a critical point to the west and any major russian offensive would have to start there. it would have given both von leeb and von runstedt time to pull out of their respective vectors and support von bock's flanks and rear. had that happened, zhukov would have had to delay his counter-offnsive, even with the siberian division already poised for a counter-attack.

 

well they would have attempted to hold moscow, staingrad would have still had happened and the russians would have pushed to get moscow back making it another stalingrad, look what stalin did to keep staingrad, do you think it would have been any different for moscow

 

the germans were trying to hold the entire front at the time the sixth army was encircled. that's why von mantein ordered von paulus to stand. the 6th would have broken out had it been ordered to but to do so would have endangered the southern and central fronts.

during the moscow campaign, it was different. the germans were still primed for advance.

 

You are missing the point, read the whole posts before posting your won please
Look this is a what if scenario based on what ifs right? OK then use that first thread to base your posts.

My point is as I said before "well they would have attempted to hold moscow, staingrad would have still had happened and the russians would have pushed to get moscow back making it another stalingrad," Now what do you think of this, do you agree on this or something else. I have no problem with your opinion at all what ever it is, however don't quote me real facts as if it is a what if scenario please.

 

Hitler never intended to go past the Volga River.....