Guilt about SS memorabilia

Amen to that!

 

An object remains an object depsite the symbol it represents, it's not guilty of having committed massacres. The man who pulls the trigger is the killer not his gun.

If we were to destroy every hated symbol , we'd soon destroy our own history. I see these as historical objects. Should we destroy Ivan the Terrible's crown because he was a murderer? I believe opinions will evolve after a few generations. Let us condemn Nazis and those whop worship them , not their uniforms.

 

Hiu Andy, most definately ) Also, Hucks IS to blame for me getting more interested in award docs. Thanks to him, I found two groupings belonging to two men who foiught and one was KIA at Stalingrad. One was in the Panzerjager unit of one of the I.Ds )

 

Well said Skipper. I was about to post something similar but you beat me to it ;-))

Do I feel any guilt in owning anything from WWII? -- absolutely not. Also, none of the items I collect have anything to do with Concentration Camps or nazi idology. I do have one nazi item which is a VERY early made party banner-this is only because of a trade I made getting rid of things that I had zero interest in and this was all the guy had.

 

Hello Skipper,

well maybe these Nazi things are exactly what encouraged certain men to pull the trigger more easy (without scruples) ??

And for history's sake - well that is what they have museums for.

Okay, okay I am back in my foxhole

Regards
Kruska

 

I am pretty much echoing everyone here, but I might as well throw in my two cents

There is clearly nothing wrong with owning a piece of SS Militaria as long as it is for purely historical interest.

 

There is nothing wrong with it whatsoever.

In my opinion, collectors of Nazi memorabilia often get a bum rap because this is the same materiel that is used by neo-nazis and skinheads.

After one has read an article or seen a television documentary on neo-nazis, along with pictures of the Nazi flag, Adolph Hitler, etc., one is apt to have a knee jerk reflex over this material owned by anyone.

I am not blaming anybody for these knee jerk reflexes because I consider them to be quite natural and expectable. I'm just saying that, in my opinion, this is the reason people often object to these collections.

For those that believe that there is something wrong with collecting this material, what should be done with it? Should it simply be destroyed?

This gets me thinking about book burning!!!

The editorial aside, again I emphasize that there is absolutely nothing wrong with the collection of Nazi memorabilia.

Bob Guercio

 

Hi, guys !
IM a newbie to the forum, I also am a collector. mostly germen. NO im not a neo-nazi or a skinhead either!!! There is nothing wrong with owning a piece of history !!!! This may sound strange to you all, but somehow this stuff speakes to me.... just to think where its been and who used it and the things its seen. So, dont feel bad about having it !!!!! Got to know where you,ve been to know where your going ....
thanks
michael

 

Hi Blacksnake, sorry I hadn't seen this before now but-glad to help try to keep the record a bit straight ;-))

 

Hi David, and sorry I had not seen this before now to reply but, when I first got these items knowing full well what they represented-I actually did have a -for lack of better terminology at this time-I had a "fluttering" almost sick feeling in my stomach about these items but, over the years-my inner feelings on these items hav slightly changed because--to have bad feelings about Military Rank insignia would be -also for lack of better words on my part--would be almost insane. If I felt this exact same way about my entire collection-I would have not spent the money for these items I now possess and would have sold off te other stuff I had long ago and probably would have spent that money on something else-such as more Comicbooks, trading cards-movie memorbilia etc. However, over the years-I have seen many people either falsly or unknowingly-try to "lump in" all individuals who either was in one or another branch of the German Armed Forces-then known as the Wehrmacht) and that those folks intentionally or not-placed every single soul into the same catagory-that of War Criminals or that they were bad people just because they were forced to take an oath that made them pledge their lives to Adolf Hitler-and knowing as many German Veterans as I have known and still do know-I found that the vast majority of them--all but one---were absolutely disgusted with having to swear such a pedge.

The Waffen SS items I own are Military in nature-and have absolutely nothing to do with the Political part of what was then--Germany. My insignia in particular--is all unissed and unused-and have not "been there and done that," if you know what I mean? ;-) Anyway, to make a judgement on cloth items and what these in particular represented-is akin to saying that every individual who served in one branch or other-of the Wehrmacht--were all child-killing-Jew-hating-mindless murderers--which is also absolutely wrong to do.

Recently in more than one thread here on this site, I found myself having to defend individuals from being lumped in with those war criminals--all just because they happened to serve in the Waffen SS--most notably my friend Remy Schrijnen. Accusations like that cannot and MUST not be made--as a Lawyer--you know that to be true ;-)) When someone who makes certain accusations and or generalizations about individuals and or certain individuals--such as my friend Remy Schrijnen-and also knowing that he cannot defend himself and or his beliefs-because he passed away-leaves it up to people like myself-who have listened to the many many stories over the years as told to me by the German Vets who "were there and did that" to defend at least those who we know about and also know for a fact-that these men that people like I, Julio, Erich and others here know personally as well as through correspondance-phone calls etc--against people who either don't know what they are talking about becaue they don't know or do not want to know--any WWII German Veteran and just generalize them all as being bad people-which is factually impossible for every single member of any certain race-to be an evil individual.

I find it more and more necessary to defend those German vets that I do know and have met and or corresponded with for many years now. I do so in the hopes that the people I defend these men from--will open their eyes a bit more and to be able to "see" things fairly-as I know you do. As for items representing certain things from an evil regieme-such as political items--I do own exactly one politically-related item-which is a nazi party banner-a very early made one at that. I am fully aware of what that item represents adn know full well what might have taken place in front of this flag-however, since nobody can say for a fact that this glag hung in front of people who were unfortunately-abused and murdered-or anything of that nature? then I cannot allow that into any argument as being something that represented more than just an evil vile--regieme. The banner I have-could have just as easily have been stored in som eold steamer trunk and never used after 1923-1925--many years before mass murders took place at Concentration Camps and such.

My German collecting interests center on only the Military-and not political. Personally, I despise anything political and will never collect political--or police for that matter. This also includes Hitler Youth items, RAD, Hunting Assn, Forestry, SA, Allgemeine SS, Org Todt, NSFK, NSKK, and whatever other organizations they had that helped further that sick regieme. Those items too are OK to collect-however-I have absolutely no interest in any of those orgs listed and in any orgs not listed. My focus used to be on all of their Armed Forces Branches-but now is only on that of the Army. I do collect Imperial German-but not near as much as I collect the WWII stuff.

I also refuse to collect anything dealing with those who manned concentration camps and the like-as well as the insignia and documents-pictures etc--that have anything to do with it. Many items I have in my possession came from the man who earned them himself. In all of these cases, not a single one of these men ever committed anytype of crime and served his time in the military-not really just foir his Country-but because for his Comrades. What many people seem to not be able to "see" or are not willing to "see" is that most of those who served-did not do so for the regieme-but served because of their loyalty towards their Comrades more than anything else.

I can't help it if many of the items I collect have swastikas on them-it's merely a part of that items over-all design. People seem to also forget that the Swaz has been around much much longer and before anyone ever thought of creating a nazi party. The Indians used it, also the US Army had that same symbol as a shoulder patch (before it was changed) and that shoulder patch was that of I think-the 45th Infantry Division-which was made up of men from New Mexico and Arizona. Excuse me if I have the wrong I.D Nr? as I have not studind many Americna units in quite a long time and have evidently forgotten a lot of what I used to know and used to study about-long before I ever became interested in the German side of things.

Anyway, I know that by now that you can better understand my view on collecting these items and in that no-I cannot agree with the lumping in of all of these collectables as being items that represented wha was vile about Germany before and during WWII. I am not going to hate an object because it has a Swaz (if it has anything to do with the military?) but like I say, I myself, choose to not collect anyhting political in anture and I only have that early made party banner--which BTW--I never have on display and sits in a dark spot on my closet with things placed on top of it for lack of available space. The only reason I have this banner-is because of a swap I made with a dealer at a gun show swapping repo items that I bought as originals and got royaly screwed on by the seller and the only wa to make any of my money back-was to get this item. Also, this item was one of three items I got from the guy I traded all of the junk I got shafted on about 2 or so years before. The other two items I got were two 1939 EKIIs w/o ribbons--both of which I gave away to friends who badly wanted them.

One of the EKIIs went to a man who had been a German Artillery Officer who spent his entire combat service in such a role--on the Eastern Front. In 1950, he--after marrying his British Sweetheart--they immigrated here to the USA, and they both got jobs working on our rocket program--under Werner von Braun. This man never committed any war crimes and this man never surrendered nor ever spent any time in a PoW camp. Can this man be considered an evil person and or a war criminal--no he certainly cannot. I now possess the only wartime momento he had laft-which was his Eastern Front Medal that he gave to me about 13 years ago as an act of friendship. I in return-gave him one of those two EKIIs w/o ribbon-because he had been needing an EKII to use as a visual aid--for his history lectures that he and his wife used to travel about the Country giving. Though he offered to pay me for the EKII-I said nope I would not accept any form of payment for the item and that it was his. He surprised me by giving me his only war momento he had left-which was also his most prized--which was that East Front Medal. I kept it only because he called em up and asked me to be the caretaker of his (now my) Medal.

I have many items that were given to me by WWII German Vets-including but not limited to: a Uboat Officers Overseas cap, a Panzer Officers pair of Collartabs, ribbonbars and such--all of which I still possess and cherish above anything I ever paid for. I KNOW what their items represent and I know whom they had belonged to and I know where they were at and such. These vet given items mean so much more to me above everything I ever paid or swapped for. Its for the reasons listed above and other reasons-why I cherish those items above all others I own with the exception of my Dads and Grandfathers items that are now in my possession.

Sorry to make a long story out of trying to say that I do not agree with the feelings that the items I collect represent terrible tragedies and evilness. IMO-my items represent the individuals that earned them and I know many of the individuals who I recieved these items from so I know these items did not at all-represent evil-but represented the man who earne these items. I have an Imperial German item that a WWII German Uboat vet/friend of mine gave to me--which was the only item he had that had to do with the military--which happened to be his Fathers Loyalty to the Regiment Cross-for the Company he served in in a certain Imperial Infantry Regiment. If interestd? this oyalty to the Regiment Cross was awarded to his Father who served with the 15th Kompany von Sachsen Regiment--and was awarded this beautiful award back in either 1901 or 1902. This friend gave me this item knowing that I would cherish and take care of it. He was disappointed that he had nothing from his WWII sevice to give to me and wanted me to have something-to show his friendship to me.

Anyway, I know you will see this in a fair balanced way-as I intend it to be seen.

Take care and best regards--Carl.

 

Not only Hucks, but Stewy and Fischer too ;-))

 

I'm not a collector, but a big +1 to much of what has been posted above. One caveat, however--it does depend on where you have your memorabilia.

Case in point: In September 1944 my father "liberated" the big German garrison flag from the HQ in Brest, France. Hee went in with an informal white-flag crew to seek surrender, but the German officers had fled, and there wasn't anyone with sufficient rank to complete the surrender. The remaining Germans filled the jeep with cognac and other goodies and sent them back to the American lines; I think the official surrender took place the next day. My father had filled out somewhat; the flag was under his greatcoat. He mailed it back to my mother, and it's been in the family ever since.

His (and my) intention was to pass it on to my older son, who is career Army (currently in Iraq fixing helicopters); however, soldiers caught with Nazi memorabilia wind up in big trouble. So, if you're a civilian, don't worry about it; if you're military, you may want to hide the items well.

DaveBj

 

i personally dont have much interest in SS stuff, .....field gear perhaps, but it's pretty much the same as Heer, bar the stamp.......so Heer is just fine with me (and cheaper too)

 

This thread reminds me of a similar one which I started a while ago. With out opening a can of worms, I find it bizarre how most of these collections and fascination with Nazi Germany come mostly (from my experience) from the U.S.

Sure there is nothing wrong with having German WW2 era memorabilia for the sake of history and so on. But how many youngsters (for the most part) have these items because they are "cool"?

A good number tried to make home in this fine place. But many veterans here can claim, they did not last long.

 

I personally would love to have the things of hitlers most elite unit. i would like to have an original ss uniform not for the money value but for its personal value to the soldier that wore it.

 

Hi Lou, thank you and you are correct in your assumptions on my collecting interests and such. Sadly, most of my stuff are kept in boxes and the only items I have on display are my small Bayonet Collection, my two helmets-one was Dads WWII lid-the other is a Luftschutz 3-piece "Gladiator" style helmet soon to be Skippers, and I have all seven of my Award Docs placed in thick clear plastic documents stands and these are above my War Rooms main window on a shelf above it. As for all my other itms not in boxes--I have my Artillery Majors tunic unceremoniously sitting on its hanger in my Wardrobe, its companion Peaked Visored cap sits in the wardrobe along with my other German Officers cap-all of which sit on top of my folded party banner.

All of my Rank/unit insignia are in boxes as well as all of my Imperial and WWII awards and such.

I also completely agree with you in that some people might collect these items to live out some sort of twisted fantasy they dreamed up. Me? i'd look goofy wearing a peaked visored Arty Offz Cap in public--let alone I couldn't do it because that cap is valued at appx $1,400-in its condition.

I do have a few pics lying about somewhere that I took using one of those cheap disposable cameras. They didn't come out like they should have and though I know how to center subjects in pictures-the camera was so cheap that that didn't happen with all of my pics. When get all of my original photots finally on CD-I do intend taking these items to get scanned to CDs on a Kodak machine that is at Wal-Mart. This will probably take up to a few months to do-because I normally don't make it to Wal-Mart to do shopping before about 9PM and their photo-copiers automatically shut down by 9PM.

Let me see if I can find the photos I took and I will pick out the better pics and will gladly send them to you. However, it would have to be done by snail mail. I don't have a scanner or printer yet-though one is on my "to get" list ;-)) I had had some nice pics taken of my Walther P-38-along with my small collection of three P-38 Holsters. However, when I took this film to be developed at Wal-Mart-the pics of my Walther Pistol-were not developed by one of the WM workers because they were offended by the photos I took of my Pistol-even though I also had on that same roll of film-a few pics of my party banner-which was developed-swaz and all. I tend to think that that employee didn't like my pics showing my Walther with loaded magazines as well as a few rounds sitting around the Pistol itself.

I might still have some older pics of some of my things. If so, ill gladly send them to you. I recently sent about 100 photos and two photo CDs to a friend that showed off about 1/2 of my collection of Militaria as well as original photos. Im not sure if the newer pics I took went to my friend or not? ill have to look through where my photos are kept to see for sure. Ill let you know as soon as I see what I have available. If no pics are still left here? it will be probably near a month before I can start taking some items to WM to get scanned to a CD.

Take care Lou-and I always appreciate your insight into these things.

Best regards--Carl.

 

Personally, I would only want a few or one-complete uniform from the LAH or likewise Division. However, if i had a choice-my uniform of choice from WWII would have to be one to a high ranking officer in the Grossdeutschland Division, another to an Panzer Oberleutnant who is also an RKT in that Divisions 1st Panzer Battalion-as I own a nice pair of his shoulderboards. I got these boards from his family about 4-5 years ago.

I don't center my collecting of items based on what think their value will eventually be-but more based on items that have an "identity" of sorts ass well as a researchable "trail." If an item I get that is researchable and also happens to be Waffen SS-or something to a man who was in an elite unit-so be it. However, I never buy anything based on a "'coolness"" factor even though I would not complain if someone gave me a complete Panzer Soldiers uniform complete with Panzer Wrapper, overseas cap, a few awards and such. Same goes for an Assault Gunners uniform and maybe 1-2 Army Generals uniforms. Other than that, I really don't just want anything based on that it might become much more valuable-or that it looks "pretty."

For example, I normally am not interested in fieldgear and such but- my dream is to eventually have enough uniforms, fieldgear and awards-to make a bunker command post scene. This I figure would require an officer (my Arty Major) a radioman, an NCO of somekind, and probably one more complete uniform. However, i'm STILL 3 & 1/2 uniforms away from that goal.

Other than that, I collect things I see that are good bargains. I am not one who cares to eventually own 175 examples of Silver Infantry Assault Badges, but I own three full sized and two Stickpin-sized IABs. I also don't collect by maker either-as I don't have the time or money for the "hunt."