HITLER AND ATOMB BOMB

In 1944 on Christmas eve Hitler´s atom bomb is finalized and immediately he decides to use it! Where would he drop it, and why? Let´s say he has 2-3 bombs to use, so a number of places can be considered.

Would the war end thus with the allied giving up?How about Russia?
All in all this gives room for a lot of speculation, but I do think that we should think that it was the spring of 1944 at the earliest.

I think the first bomb would have been dropped in Moscow ( in V2 ) for Hitler loathed the russians. If necessary the second bomb would have been dropped in London, for I don´t think Hitler would have wanted the nuclear waste on the continent ( sorry England ).

So here you go...

 

I believe the first bomb would be on London actually. What does Hitler care about nuclear waste...not that they knew about it much back then. Besides, France is closest to England. What does Hitler care about France? The next bomb would be placed in an Me-264 (i believe) and sent to New York. The third wouldnt be Moscow. It would be Zhukov and his forces preparing for Bagration. Convince the Soviets their numbers mean nothing, and the war will end pretty quickly. With the Western Allies suing for peace, and the Soviet armies being decimated, Germany would quickly turn the tables. They might demand an end to the war against Japan too. To the V-2 proposition, that would not have immediatley happened. One would have a range of things to figure out before attempting something. One does not put a nuclear warhead on a rocket without care! Although it would be in the forseeable future...

 

I think it would be New York first.

Then Moscow.

Then London.

My argument for this is that the US and the USSR were the greatest threats to the Third Reich. It was like the strategy implemented in WWI in the Kaiser's Battle. In that battle the Germans hit the aliies before the Americans could bring all their might to bear. In this case Hitler would have hit the Americans first to try and force them into some sort of peace deal, along with the other nemesis the USSR.

Dasreich

I feel that if the Horton bomber had been in production by then it would have been used against the American mainland. After all it was going to be called the 'Amerika' Bomber.

I have posted this link before, but I'm gonna do it again.

Go the www.luft46.com and epecially http://visi.net/~djohnson/mmart/ho18bmm.html to see what might have been had the Germans developed this bomber, it even had stealth capabilty!

However, I think that this would have not drawn the Americans to the peace table. It would have just meant the Manhatten project would have been speeded up and the German mainland would have been hit hard with both the bombs dropped on Japan along with a lot more. I reckon Berlin and Nuremburg would have been the initial targets.

Hitler would have fried and the German goverment, or what was left of it, would have sued for peace.

[ 17 August 2002, 03:42 PM: Message edited by: the gunners dream ]

 

Interesting point gunners dream. But back then, making bombs was very long and costly. Had Nuremberg and Berlin been hit, then Boston and Washington would be next. But remember, Germany is insulated by surrounding conquered territories. during the time between the first drop of the German bomb and the finishing of the manhatten project, Europe would likely be reconquered and Germany would have the buffer to shoot down any bomber in time. I think if Hitler got the bomb first, it would definitely put the Allies in a difficult position.

I agree with you about the USSR; they were the biggest threat, but England would be hit next because its an easier target to get to and IF Britain sued for peace (they would have to be hit very hard for that to happen) the US would have a hard time continuing the attack in Europe, considering if the soviets are hit hard and subdued, the German armies in the East would be on their way to the West. It may not even be necessarry to hit New York, unless the Americans start dropping bombs.

The reason I believe America would want to come to the peace table is they dont want excessive casualties. When FDR failed in his promise to give Stalin a second front in late '42, it was because of the fear of too many American losses. With the prospect of an atomic war with someone who couldnt care less about civillian casualties, they would think twice about going all the way. Remember, FDR knew that a war would jumpstart the eonomy. But the eastern coast getting nuked would not be very beneficial. 9-11 cost us billions...and that was just a few buildings. Imagine losing a good deal of the major cities on the eastern seaboard. It would be catastrophic. I believe that FDR had more sense than to involve us in exchange that would benefit no one.

This topic is definitely a good what-if!

 

I'm with dasreich on this one.

I figure London would be first to be hit. Imagine if Churchill and Parliament were hit, along with quite a few senior military people, whoever was left would certainly be pushed into at least a ceasefire if not a peace treaty. Making it very hard for the US to carry on the fight. Part of the deal would have to be withdrawal of all US forces from the UK.

Besides if London was hit, the american people might just decide that maybe europe wasn't their war after all and that they should concentrate on Japan. It's a possiblilty, early in the war, US public opinion was quite divided about which enemy should be attacked first. The US didn't really get started until after Pearl Harbour. They were just suppliers to the British, and looking after their eastern seaboard.

After London of course Moscow would have been next. A couple of test firings with standard V2's just to get the range and away you go. Hitler wouldn't have worried about fallout. When you're in a tight corner you don't worry about who gets hit you just come out fighting.

If he had a couple of spare bombs I reckon he would have sent one to Stalingrad as well. Just to add icing on the cake so to speak.

It may not have stopped the war in the East but certainly if he attacked London it more than likey would have stopped the war in the West. At least for a little while, but probably not forever. I don't think the British people would let London be bombed into oblivion and forget about it.

 

Did the V-2 have the range to hit Moscow from the eastern front in December 1944?? I don't think so.

But my personal target list would also be:
London, New York and then a Soviet staging area.

It was not possible to "speed up" the Manhatten Project, it was going as fast as it possibly could anyway. So if you give the Germans half a year lead, and a rate of 2-3 bombs per month or something, the Allies WOULD have made peace.

 

I think Moscow would have been first. Despite Hitler's rantings I still think he would have wanted to preserve Britain as a potential ally. Forcing Britain out of the war using an A-Bomb would have had littele impact on the Russian front. Dropping it on Moscow and then saying "you're next" unless you make peace seems more in character.

However he would not use Sarin or Tabun for fear of retaliation, so why would the A-Bomb be different?

Jumbo

 

It's true Andreas, I don't think your standard garden variety V2 had the range to make Moscow, but they were developing a winged version (was it the A4 or A5?) with the potential to reach New York, so in theory, if they had developed the A bomb earlier than anyone else, they probably would have accelerated development of the long range V2 as well.

But definitely Moscow would have been a prime target.

And maybe not London, how about just the invasion staging areas in the South East of England. The germans certainly new that's where the invasion forces were located, so maybe they would use that target as an example to the British and Americans.

 

Sniper

By Christmas eve 1944 the allied invasion force is revving it's engines on the Rhine.

Jumbo

 

Thanks Jumbo, sort of skipped my mind about the time frame and the allies on the rhine.

Also just remembered A Bombs are quite heavy, too heavy for a V2, you need a plane like the B29 to carry one.

Maybe Hitler would have just used them aa a tactical nuke, dig them into a hole somewhere close to the allied (and the russian)lines of advance and then get some suicidal nazi to just flick the switch.

Bang, up goes a large part of France or Belgium or Poland, along with a large chunk of attacking troops.

Easier than trying to find a plane to deliver it.

 

I suppose you could use a BV222 rigged for high altitude work. That would certainly have the range!

jumbo

 

I don't have any specs on the BV222, was she an operational ??

Of course, they could have been very sneaky, and used one of their captured B17's. i'm not sure, but I think they had 5 in all, one (maybe two) which were fully operational.

I seem to recall reading somewhere about "suspicious" lone B17s being spotted on at least a couple of occasions trailing behind bomber formations. One being chased off by US fighters at some stage. Cna't recall which Jg was flying them though. Any ideas?

 

The Bv 222 Wiking was one of those Wonderful Flying Boats with a massive range. They were operational, but I don't know about altitude: I will look it up at home.

A captured B17 would have been better, certainly faster!

Jumbo

 

KG 200 (I think it had an added "zbV") had several captured planes. There are quite a number of pictures with flying B-17s sporting German markings. These flew under KG200, AFAIK. Erich, this is your field, where the hell are you!

 

Well, I agree with Jumbo a lot here:

Beside Hitler had bombed London back in 1940 and 1941, I don't think he'd have agreed on the complete destruction of the British capital. Moscow would have been surely destroyed to end the war in the East and say Britain: "Peace or bomb!" And if they didn't accept, here goes a bomb onto a small British city, not London. In my opinion...

And certainly the V2s would have had required much more development to carry such big and delicate equipment... A captured bomber would have been better. Because the Me-234 or the He-177 (? not sure about the number) "Greif" were few and untested... And I like the idea of droping it onto some American city and ending both wars at once.

And if we look back to the factories of heavy water in Norway back then in 1941 it was very plausible to have an A-bomb in summer 44...

 

Well, I agree with Jumbo a lot here:

Beside Hitler had bombed London back in 1940 and 1941, I don't think he'd have agreed on the complete destruction of the British capital. Moscow would have been surely destroyed to end the war in the East and say Britain: "Peace or bomb!" And if they didn't accept, here goes a bomb onto a small British city, not London. In my opinion...

And certainly the V2s would have had required much more development to carry such big and delicate equipment... A captured bomber would have been better. Because the Me-234 or the He-177 (? not sure about the number) "Greif" were few and untested... And I like the idea of droping it onto some American city and ending both wars at once.

And if we look back to the factories of heavy water in Norway back then in 1941 it was very plausible to have an A-bomb in summer 44...

 

Even with Germany having a half year edge on the A bomb I dont see Hitler using it on England or the US. I dont think he would risk the US dropping one on his house. If you hit England you still risk massive US casualties due to the amount of troops stationed there by that stage of the war. Those large casualties would get a "not so friendly" response from the US. Russia on the other hand would probably cease to exist. Hitler would bomb that country off the map. As we know, the US used 2 A bombs on Japan when they were already in the process of being defeated. The US would definately use them on Germany if they dropped one on England.

 

In late '44, there was a more imminent threat than moscow-Zhukov and the rest of the Red Army. I think Hitler would have wiped out a load of red troops first and then went for the kremlin.

 

Friedrich

You are falling into the trap Hitler's scientists did! The Heavy Water route was a blind ally for atom bomb development, postwar allied surveys of the German bomb programme showed that because of this they were nowhere close. This is what comes of stupid racial policies driving out people like Einstein, Heisenberg (the "white" Jew) depriving Germany of a huge section of it's best scientists.

BTW the guy who blew up the heavy water plant is still alive in Norway, wiry old bugger, and lectures schoolkids and NATO officers in winter warfare training (including Germans).

Jumbo

 

What about giving one of the bombs to Skorzeny? Bet he would have found a way to get it in the Kremlin!

V2 with an atom bomb = Bad news for London...