What If No Japanese? How to utilise the 2nd AIF

In this “What If’”
It is about the way the Australian forces could have been employed had their been no war against Japan or any other nation except Nazi Germany, Italy and any of their allies.
The war in Europe, Great Britain, Africa/Med/Atlantic/North Sea, etc up until mid 1941 is in this ‘what if’ is as it actually happened.

However, the eternal question. How long before USA involvement? Well IMHO with no Japanese attacks on USA and her ships, then no USA in WW2 until several more years pass and it proves essential for them to come to the aid of democracy and decency. However, the USA is arming the Allies with many weapons and so on.
My what if ,is as I said to work out how and where the Australian Infantry and Armour etc would be utilised, from mid 1941 through to end of war.
By mid 1941 they had four infantry Divs with a Armoured Div being collected, as well as a extra Div the 10th AIF was to be raised by early 1942 and sent to create a Australian Army of 5 Inft Divs and one (1) Armoured Division,
Their were by mid 1941 some Australian Commando units getting ready for action. The Independent Company’s (Commandoes). Each unit had about 250 men all up and to be used in similar ways to British Commandoes.
So we are back in the war of European nations, we will start at
Christmas 1940,
The sixth Australian Div, New Zealand Div with Brit Desert Rats Armoured Div, Are preparing to attack Italian positions across the western deserts from the Egypt border and make their way across Libya eventually up into Benghazi and so on.
The 1st AIF and NZ Div and much of the armour where then sent to Greece to prevent a German and Italian Invasion.

The seventh AIF was also planned to go to Greece, however after Rommel’s initial advances, they were left in Egypt and Libya. As in the real wartime line, they by this time were needed to send 18th Bgd to Tobruk, and use their other two (2) Bgds to place in defensive positions to help protect Egypt etc.
The eighth AIF division is where? We know the ninth AIF minus several supporting units Arty etc was the first line of defence in the western Desserts
So was eighth (8th) Div in Palestine or moved forward towards Libya etc. Did they go to Greece?
So now, we are at mid 1941 with fighting in the western Desserts ending in a withdrawal to Tobruk or did it? As the British allies had the equivalent of three (3) Aussie Divisions plus any other Brit & Commonwealth and other nations units
Total Australia Infantry Divisions number four with an Armoured and an extra Infantry Div to be raised.
Therefore, we have for the time being only Four (4) Australian Div’s. How will you use them and their sub units for remainder of war?

Thanks it's my first attempt i hope some find it fun to play with.

Regards
Cobber

 

will australia introduce conscription at all?

 

I only ask as its important to futuret aussie deployment and reinforcement. No japs no half hearted conscription in 42. The conscript equator rules then no longer apply too.. No one to apply them to. Strange way to fight a war of survival.

 

Wont you eventually run out of casualty replacements?

 

Use them like the South Africans? A better question. What to do with the Indian troops?

 

Firstly I don't think the Aussies could of that done much, (they certainly would not be like the cavalry coming to the rescue) except being a bluddy handy force for the Brits to have around; to have a force of four (4) trained infantry Division, in mid 1941 (Egypt/Libya) would be welcomed by all involved.

I feel they would for some years have a volunteer only force;
That could eventually some years away have a need for conscripting REO's,

As happened in WW1 where casualties where even for Aussie's there was a immense in numbers of dead and wounded.
The AIF deployed five (5) Infantry Divisions (60 Battalions) in France and Two Mounted infantry Divisions (up to 24 Btns) in the Mid East, so they managed to have a total of seven (7) Divisions in the field fighting, from 1916 to 1918 and with allmost every type of support weapon.
I state this as it shows Australia could support a force of up to 6 Divisions in WW2

It was only mid/late 1918 that the 1st AIF dropped one (1) Btn from three Brigades, too be used as Reo's in other Divisions so this means that the Aussies fielded 5 x 12 Infantry Battalion Divisions, (60 Btns) and ultimatly (1918) 57 Btns.
I only mention this as it shows that Australia is capable of keeping numerous Volunteer only Divisions in the field.

In WW2 like their forbears they the 2nd AIF were a all volunteer force, however IMO due to their being no USA and just Brits and their Allies, the chances of bringing in a form of conscription is IMHO very high, the laws for employing Conscripted may have to be changed to allow the conscripts to fight any where needed

The Aussies were using close to (6) Six Inft Divisions plus many other combat forces in the Sth West Pacific. They had a huge amount sickness as well as battle casualties,yet kept the numbers up enough to keep the AIF Divisions/Btns & Militia fighting, so I donot think they would run out of Reos in the European theatres for quite some years.

Indians would be a large part of Brits army's used in all theatres, yet I'd expect them to send "some" Troops to Indo China to fight the Vichy French.

I agree the way they set up Australian Military in the real war in Pacific, with two separate fighting Army's, AIF and Militia was stupid, I believe that Volunteers would of kept up with the numbers required for the 2nd AIF and the Militia Div and Btns.
Many Militia wanted to go join 2nd AIF but were held back by their Militia CO's. I donot know why they did this.



So have the British and Allies etc stopped Rommel earlier?
Or did it have a similar ending with the siege of Tobruk. 2nd AIF 9th AIF Div and 18th Bgd Now their is Syria and the Geek debacle, we know that 7th AIF Div then went up against Vichy French in Syria,, with help from some 6th AIF Div Btns who had got out of Greece what and where would the 8th AIF be during this period up on the Libyan frontier or fighting in Greece, Crete or Syria

 

i ha e to disagree. your nations objections to conscription are legendary. even at the point of national survival and fear of invasion your public was against it. introducing a hotch potch measure even then. if no japs not even that would happen. you would eventually run out of volunteer replacements and your divisions diluted like indian with british units.

 

Conscirts were used in certain parts of WW2 and their were several referendums during the first war which the pro conscripts lost. If WW2 the casualties amounts would be much lower that the WW1, so the simple reason of deduction shows that they could field 7 Divisions in WW1 with out any conscription and the Australia Corps in WW1 had been in the trenches from mid 1916 to 1918.c So they fought a lot. with huge Casualties.
During the Viet Nam conflict conscripts were approx 60% of all infantry men etc and this was accepted by the majority of Aussies voters. It wasn't till late in the war around 1969/70 that in Australia the protesters turned on Conscription's although their was the SOS or Save our sons group of mothers protesting that their men could be hurt.

Unless you are a Aussie or understand the ways of Aussies esp back in WW2 many Aussies looked upon it as going to the aid of GB who many
still believed was the home land, so again no conscription untill the roll of volunteer REO's is diminished to a very small amount.
Even with the amount of RAAF flyer's. AIF would of been able to do their bit while having large numbers for the Australian Army of six Divisions.

URGH mate I don't know where you are from but man as in the war in the Pacific up to 3 Inf and 1 Armoured Division of AIF Volunteers and the conscripted militia 3+ Divisions. AS Australia had allready proven they could fight and sustain the their fighting units in WW2

I would use this force firstly in the deserts and then where else allies land could be used
I see them used similar to Canadian troops
.
Cheers and Beers for you guys who have responded, keep it up.

 

i refer you to ww twl aussi rquaator rules on yor conscription policy mare

 

im not having a go cobber im trying to understand how ylur manpower policy exampled by facts of second war not first will effect your Scenario..irish by birth english by chojce. fAamily cossed d border to join up in ww two.

 

URGH mate;
I wouldn't mind where you are from as I find every nation has good people and you seem to be one of the good.
You bring up a good point as Conscription in Australia has been through many changes.

As i have said the 2nd AIF would not of run out of Volunteer REO's for quite some years say more than four, remember in Singapore etc they lost nearly 25,000 men. These men would be available for battle along with all other nations units based in Singapore. 8th AIf in Egypt Mid East as they planned to have, 4 Inft and 1 Armour with possible another Inft Div.
In the reality of WW2 they would raise such a force with out being pretty certain they would be able to keep the man power level at a viable level, however I am sure that if the Australian Govt decided for conscription was needed they would create some change the rules for employment of conscripts, as you obviously have read some on the "mixed up child" that is Aussie conscription they have had several different ways of employing conscripts, however as I said a very large amount of men who were held back from AIF enlisting by their Militia CO's ( stupid rules),

OK we could go on and on about this dude.

For this "What If" if Australia run low on numbers (IMO very unlikely) they bring in conscription and change the laws so they can fight anywhere, which I feel would be perfectly acceptable in a Australia of the time that saw themselves helping to defend Britain.The 2nd AIF would be used as a part of a larger force maybe just two (2) corps and they would not be the ones who won the war, just a bunch of Aussie blokes out to defend the home land of their parents ancestors or in many cases themselves.

As for the stuff about WW1 it was given to show Australia has the capability at the time to field 7 Divisions of volunteers and would again in WW2 have enough volunteers, men for two WW2 Corps or possibly Three


Cheers URGH mate, I like you questions, I now know that i must put in more facts etc when doing a What If like this one.


Thanks for the Intrest
Regards Cobber. = friend)

 

thats what i wanted to know mate. the more than four bit. sounds reasonable. i quoted my nationality as you wandered where i was from. i bring up the numbers only cos i remember the churchill fdr aussie rumpus over returning aif past burma and the bad politicking that then took place mentioning conscription in some of thee telegrams.

 

Cheers mate i will see if i can get it strated soon.

 

Oh dude my Grand Ma on mums side was a Irish girl from close to Galway a Coogan
20 years in Ireland
30 years in London
39 years in Melbourne
She in her last years remembered how to do a jig and astounded everyone1

In this scenario especially this first post will concentrate on the Aussies, if i miss mentioning other nations forces by name please excuse as i have just lumped all Brits and Allies into the words Britain (Brits) and her Allies.


OK back to subject at hand, as planned

6th AIF Div
went to Greece and Crete. The remnants of the battered and bruised 6th Divisions are bought in to Palestine camp, 16th and 17th and 19th brigades of the 6th Division are not needed for the Syrian campaign as happened in reality. (They are instead given the three R's, Rest, Reequipped and Reinforced)

7th Div
warned for Greece but Afrika Corp changes that and as they are closest Aussie Div to the frontier they are sent forward to guard along side other "Allied Troops" the Egyptian/Libyan frontier.
The 7th Divs 18th Bgd is also sent into Tobruk.

8th AIF Div are warned for possible fighting in Egypt, however the 8th Div, is the Aussie Division that has warned for the fight against Vichy French Syria. They were eventually supported by two Brigades from the 7th
and eventually do the job that was asked of them and all other British & Allied forces finally finish off the legionnaires and take Syria.

9th Div AIF who were guarding frontier, Afrika Corps attacks sending the 9th into withdrawal to Tobruk. Another thing is the 9th could of been withdrawn a month or two earlier as they had the Aussie troops along with many Brits and Polish Allies available to do this at the time in this scenario,
The Allied land war, again is pointed straight at the western Deserts, so we end up having the 6th 7th and 8th AIF Divisions that could be used for offensive/defences actions against Rommel and his men.
6th Back to full strength
7th still missing 18th Bgd (in Tobruk)
8th Blooded and full of beans
9th eventually are replaced by Brits Poles &Allies and they get the three R's (Rest, Reequipped, and reinforced) from their long stay in Tobruk.

So now it's late 1941 no Japanese bombings. Four Aussie Inft Divs and a Armoured just getting final training are available to be used along side any of Britain or her Allies.
Where do we go from here.

 

its a what if so churchill now has his wedge to promise turkey some real help rather than just weapons.. radar.. aircraft.. and false hopes if they join us. edennow gets busy and serious.. the turkish alliance is now looked at more seriously.. the help to russia.. the beloved soft underbelly . but the anzac leadership dont like the name turkey.

 

it would be a disaster of course but what plan didnt end as such in forty/forty one...

 

I can think of few less suitable troops to send to Turkey than ANZAC, opening a land front anywhere the Germans can reinforce before Barbarossa committed the bulk of their army is folly.
If the British Empire has spare troops mopping up the Vichy colonies faster than historically is the the best use for them, no US means no Torch as we know it so that's where they will pobably end up, but keeping the bulk of ANZAC forces home to deter Japan is what I would do though it goes agains the assumptions of this thread.

 

Thanks for replies guys. First timer so learning as i go along.

Their was a great bond between Australia and Turkey from when they stopped shooting at each other in 1918 onwards, see Atta Turks comments about the subject.
However I do agree that in the officers in particular the men who were Subalterns in 1915 were now Generals,and would initially have some concerns especially after the Greek debacle for the Allies. And provided they were asked to join to fight along side the Turks or a British army would probably accept such a move as long as they went their as oldtiedsoldier says after Barbarossa. The Brits & Allies felt they needed to have a safe flank and Vichy France run Syria they thought could be a possible threat of Germans moving down through Turkey and it was a bit of positive publicity for the British and allied masses.
Operation Torch is not in the wind yet though planners have some basic thoughts on the subject, firstly we need to remove Rommel Afrika Corps and their Italian Allies.
They originally used 7th Div ( - 18th Bgd in Tobruk) and when the bridges were blown had to use assault boats across several Rivers, once command HQ for the OP was moved the 17th Bgd from the 6th Div was bought in and the 16th moved forward to consolidate ground taken though these two Six (6th) Div Bgds were understrength.

In my scenario I used the 8th Div and extra units from 7th attached the fighting takes approximately as long and happened very close as it did in reality.

So with this flank safe what happens, a Division is left to occupy and this is the 6th Div, the 7th & 8th divisions are suitable for mobile warfare in the deserts and on wards, the 9th Div is in camp at Palenstein receiving the 3 R's,

Back soon guys.

 

True tos, folly and why i usually keep away from the what ifs.. We have too much hindsight ingrained. But fail or not.. Turkey figured highly in winnies mind throughout the war. No yanks on horizon as no jap threat so were thinking the old balkans or close to theories and he gets to help soviets, folly yes but that never stopped us before. As for waiting at home for a jap war that may never come.. Thats why anzacs were in mid east.. Cant fight a war that may happen but can fight the war you can and need to. Otherwise singapore would have its proposed trained troop levels agreed in 30s and a real far east fleet and air force.