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A French Panama Canal

Discussion in 'What If - Other' started by T. A. Gardner, Oct 13, 2009.

  1. T. A. Gardner

    T. A. Gardner Genuine Chief

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    If you recall, France was the first nation to try and construct a Panama Canal. They failed and sold the rights to the US who eventually managed the feat a few years later.

    But, what if the French succeeded and built the canal? Certainly they could have retained control of it as the US did up to World War 2. But, at that point...

    France falls and the Vichy government takes over. What does the US do here? Does the US invade or otherwise take the canal zone from the French prior to entering the war officially? Would the French fight? Is there a possibility that Japan moves troops in as they did in French Indochina after metropolitan France fell? Would the defense of the canal be as stong as the US had it?

    Also, would the US have embarked on a two ocean navy sooner? Would they have made the canal a requirement in size for ships as they historically did?

    Some interesting possibilities here.
     
  2. surfersami

    surfersami Member

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    The French plans for the canal were far inferior to the final product the US accomplished. As an outlying French territory it would have been a primary target for the US when France fell. As big a gooberhead as FDR was in trying to negotiate with the Vichi Gov., I think he still would have taken the canal away from the French. The Panama canal was a strategic mainstay during the war because it was functional. Had the French continued buiding it would probably not even been completed by 1939.
     
  3. Lost Watchdog

    Lost Watchdog Member

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    I was going to do this as a new tred but I'll just piggyback here. Assuming the Panama canal remains US how about a French Hawaii. France still has Polynesian territories so they could have colonised Hawaii.
    If they went Vichy, would there then be a race between the US, Japan and others to seize the island chain. My guess would be the British and Free French would have a go, with US approval.
    Even more interesting would what would happen if Hawaii remained an independent kingdom with a sizeable Japanese settler community
     
  4. LRusso216

    LRusso216 Graybeard Staff Member

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  5. eddie

    eddie Member

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    The French plans call for sea level canal, contrary to American canal with many locks and a lake between.
    French project was technically unrealistic.
    Anyway, FDR will take it from French without hesitation. He has done simular thing with French North Africa (operation Torch)
     
  6. brndirt1

    brndirt1 Saddle Tramp

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    This reminded me that it was 140 years ago this month (Nov. 17th) that the Suez Canal opened officially. Kind of off the original thread direction, but still.
     
  7. Devilsadvocate

    Devilsadvocate Ace

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    Regardless of who built it, the Panama Canal was so important to the US by, WW II, that the US would have seized control of it and kept it open for the exclusive use of the Allies and friendly neutrals.

    The French might want to fight, but they could hardly muster sufficient forces that far from Europe to put up a significant defense. More likely, they would bow to the inevitable and grumble a lot while giving up after token resistance.

    The USN considered the Panama Canal a force multiplier and would have been constrained in ship design parameters by it's restrictions whether France controlled it or not. Again, because of it's geographic location, and it's importance to the US, it's difficult to see any US administration allowing a potentially hostile power to retain control of it.

    As for Japan attempting to take the Canal over as it did with French Indochina, I seriously doubt even the Japanese would be so foolish. The US closed the Panama Canal to Japanese ships of any kind in early 1941, so it's unlikely that they would allow Japan, prior to WW II, to get anywhere near the Canal regardless of who held legal title to it.

    BTW, the US retained control of the Canal until 1999, when ownership and administration was turned back to Panama. The Canal is no longer quite as important to the US as it once, was because ships have finally outgrown it's constraints. Although smaller cargo and naval vessels can still make use of the Canal, fewer and fewer large ships bother. Consequently, revenues have fallen and Panama has had to increase fees substantially to cover maintenance costs. There has been talk of building a new, larger Canal, but so far, it is only talk.
     
  8. surfersami

    surfersami Member

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    My great grandparents, grandparents and mom lived in the Canal Zone. I was born there, but my grandfather was there during the war years. He told me stories of the big battleships going through the locks with just inches to spare. Today there is a pipe line that carries oil across Panama so the ships that don't fit can still pass their cargo to the other side.
    I have many photos from my grandparents and great grandparents that go back to the construction era, through to the 60's.
    A sea level canal would never have been completed, if the comparison statement of the Suez Canal was leading in that direction. It would have been to expensive and costly in manpower. That's what actually ended the French attempt to begin with.
    The Japanese actually had plans to attack the canal with aircraft carrier subs. That underscores the importance of the canal at the time.
    Just a thought kicker add-on, the Panama Canal would never be built today.
    Think of the environmental impact of flooding miles and miles of jungle canyons to create the lake that is the majority of the Canal. Destorying that much rainforest would have put Teddy Roosevelt on the environmental wackos hit list for sure!
     
  9. brndirt1

    brndirt1 Saddle Tramp

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    You should get your immediate family to tell you about the "Special Improvement Program No. 7" that was instigated by FDR in 1940 after the fall of France and the occupation of its former colonies by the Axis powers. By 1942/43 the program was complete and the locks were literally invunerable to bombing by the Axis with fast acting closure designs which would have stopped Gautun Lake from draining away if the gates were hit. They could be activated by both electro-hydralic or manual hydralics.

    That system remained in complete functional reality until the Canal was turned over to the Panamians, and its maintainence became cost-prohibitive.
     
  10. Carl W Schwamberger

    Carl W Schwamberger Ace

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    Anywhere we could read the details of how this system worked? Did it apply to the sluice gates on the dams as well?
     
  11. brndirt1

    brndirt1 Saddle Tramp

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    I've lost my link to the system description, but what it was entailed electro-hydralic gates which would raise and halt the water above them. The first was installed at Gatun Lake so that wouldn't drain if the top locks were bombed open. Then there were similar gates placed in the lock feeds themselves so the water wouldn't proceed downhill toward either ocean if any of the lock gates were destroyed.

    There were also "fast lift" nets installed on the bottoms of the locks to snare torpedoes if launched in them, and wires were strung from side to side above the entire system to snag low-flying planes. Like torpedo bombers. It seems that the only plane they even downed was one of our own who flew too low over one of them.

    This SIP7 plan was completed by 1942 or so, and replaced the original system which was put in as the canal system was built. It was much faster, and the old system was retained as a "back-up" just in case. That was a manual system and took longer to close, but could be done if needed.

    I'll look around in my old files and see if I can find the data again, sorry I didn't and don't have it to hand at the moment.
     
  12. surfersami

    surfersami Member

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    As a police officer, my grandfather actually has a picture of FDR coming off a ship in Panama. He was a motorcycle policeman and road escort for dignataries visiting. I was aware of the plans for defending and preserving the canal, but never saw anything in detail. I will have to look this up.
     
  13. Carl W Schwamberger

    Carl W Schwamberger Ace

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    Appreciate a heads up if you run across this. I'm interested in how the defenses there worked circa 1940-1942.

    Thanks
     
  14. brndirt1

    brndirt1 Saddle Tramp

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    I couldn't find it all, but I did find this old post which is sort of about the SIP7 system, and how it came to be. Ever since "mock attacks" called "Fleet Problem(s)" the USN assessed the vulnerability of various American installations to carrier launched air attack, the Canal Zone included.

    As an example, during Fleet Problem IX, in January 1929, Captain Joseph M. Reeves demonstrated the power of carrier aviation when he launched a mock strike of seventy aircraft from the USS Saratoga on the Panama Canal. "The planes struck without warning in an attack deemed so effective by the referees that they ruled the locks at the Pacific end of the canal destroyed." However, even though the western locks were put out of commission, the Saratoga was ruled located and "sunk" by land based aircraft by those same referees. This mitigated some of the concern as to an air attack from any Asian power (read Japan), it would be "cost in-effective" and only a temporary inconvenience to the USA. I doubt the Japanese were unaware of Fleet Problem IX of the USN.

    That one exercise did increase the anti-air battery installations, the first "quick raise" torpedo nets, and the cables strung above the canal to interdict low-flying aircraft. It also started the search for a replacement system of emergency closure of each lock system. This eventually became the SIP7 (Special Improvement Project #7) which was an improvement on the existing pre-1920 system of emergency closure devices. The conversion to the SIP7 was begun in mid-1940 after the fall of France and the Vichy government taking over control of former French colonies.

    This new system allowed each lock (starting at the Gatun Lake, the first one in place) to be closed in seconds (30) by either electro-hydraulic power, or in minutes (10) with back up hand pumps. The final SIP7 lock protection gates were complete in mid-1942. These were steel "gates" that rose out of the base of the feed canals to shut off the flow of water.

    At the beginning of 1939 the bulk of the garrison defending the Canal was divided between two separate sectors that were about as far apart organizationally as they were geographically. The Pacific Sector had a slight preponderance of force. Assigned to it were the 4th Coast Artillery Regiment, the 33d Infantry, and a battalion of the 2d Field Artillery. At the opposite end of the Canal, in the Atlantic Sector, were the 1st Coast Artillery Regiment and the 14th Infantry. Antiaircraft units made up part of both coast artillery regiments. In addition to these troops assigned to the sectors, certain units were directly under the commanding general of the Panama Canal Department. These department troops included air units-the 19th Wing (composite), with about 28 medium bombers, 14 light bombers, 24 pursuit planes, and a few trainers and utility planes. Plus a regiment of combat engineers, together with Signal Corps, quartermaster, and ordnance units, and other service and administrative detachments. The total strength of the garrison-sector as well as department troops-came to approximately 13,500 men. To the Army garrison was given the mission of protecting the Canal against sabotage and of defending it from positions within the Canal Zone. Close-in defense was thus an Army responsibility except for two specific tasks: that of providing an armed guard on vessels passing through the Canal, and that of maintaining a harbor patrol at the entrances to the Canal. Both of these tasks were entrusted to the Navy and Coast Guard, along with its primary responsibility for offshore defense.

    Plans for protecting the Canal against sabotage during an international crisis of this sort had been drawn up in Panama and given constant study ever since the spring of 1936. Now, steps to put them into effect were quickly taken. Three basic measures had been provided for: first, the installation and operation of special equipment in the lock chambers, designed to detect underwater mines and bombs and to prevent damage from this cause; second, the restriction of commercial traffic to one side of the dual locks at a time; and third, the inspection of all ships before they entered the Canal and the placing of an armed guard on vessels while in transit through it.

    Reinforcements had been arriving in Panama in a steady stream. At the end of January 1940 the strength of the garrison stood not quite at 19,500 men; by the end of April it had risen to approximately 21,100. This build up continued so that when the Japanese attack on Hawaii came, there were nearly 58,000 troops on guard in -the Canal Zone, in the Republic of Panama.

    The "locks" and "canal" systems themselves were originally designed to function without major electric power (1900s), and only by water pressure. The electric "donkey/mules" engines were incorporated much later, replacing real animals and very small generating plants for each gate house were replaced by a central power station. The loss of a central power plant would only slow down, not stop the canal. It was mostly powered by gravity and water pressure, not electricity.

    With the small local electric generation plants, the system would and could still function all the time even if slower. They might be more vulnerable these days to "electric" destruction of the input, but since all the locks were developed to work with simple gravity flow of water, and mechanical motion of the lock gates themselves, I don't see how it would be a major problem in the forties. Until the local power-plants were "back on line", the Canal would have fallen back to using real biological mules (as they were originally), instead of the electric motored "mules".

    General Marshall and Secretary Stimson decided to restrict Canal traffic for an indefinite period; "for the purpose of effecting repairs." in mid to late 1940, this was when the SIP7 system began being secretly implemented. What this amounted to was a complete exclusion of Japanese shipping through the canal; all other vessels even remotely connected with the European Axis were permitted to pass through after close inspection and the placing of American personal onboard. So, as early as July 1941 all ships, no matter their flag of origin were being boarded and inspected before they were "escorted" through the canal, and no Japanese ships were allowed to transit the canal. When they were re-routed away from the Canal, the Japanese Embassy protested. But they received a very noncommittal reply from Acting Secretary of State Welles, who had been informed by the War Department of its intentions and who was in complete accord with them.

    Then you have to factor in that the War Department, which had administered the Canal Zone and the Canal since 1904 when it was started and then completed by the Army Corps of Engineers in 1914. They had always thought of ways to protect it from sabotage by both air attack and "enemy shipping". And they had been in complete control of the Zone. The crews of ships transiting the canal were removed all during "The Great War", and the ship was manned by USN/USCG personnel, and guided by a USN "pilot" at the helm after complete inspections and before entering the canal proper.

    This policy was relaxed during the inter-war years, but re-instituted in 1939. It was during early 1940 that all European Axis "friendly" ships, or ships flying occupied nations flags were barred from using the canal, completely. Any "suspect" ship was "de-crewed" and held for 24 hours with armed guards on the ship. I cannot imagine that one could "hide" too many troops or sabotage elements on a ship in 100 degree and 98 % humidity heat for 24 hours. That would be like being in a "slow cooker", and 24 hours of that will certainly "hinder" any human effectiveness.

    After 1940 few Polish, Belgian, Dutch, Norwegian, Vichy French, Austrian, or Danish flagged ships transited the canal without extensive inspection and crew removal, period. This also excluded the Indo-Chinese flags which had been occupied by Japan with the "nod" of the Vichy French. By an odd extension, this also excluded the flags of the Soviet Union merchant marine for a time, as they had that "non aggression pact" with Hitler, and later when the Japanese were fully barred, it was in July 1941 and the Soviet shipping was once again allowed!

    That is all I've found in my old files so far, sorry it isn't more detailed on the mechanics of the SIP7 devices! I do know that after the Panama Canal was returned to Panama's controll, the system was allowed to deteriorate to the point that it is now non-functional.
     
  15. Carl W Schwamberger

    Carl W Schwamberger Ace

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    Thanks Clint.

    Did the SIP7 system extend to the control gates of the dams? Or was the configuration of the dam considered sufficient proof against air attack damage?
     
  16. USMC

    USMC Member

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    Lets say that the French built a canal that could serve a Naval importance.

    Scenarios:

    1) After France falls, FDR orders the landing of United States Marines to secure the canal. Not to take it from French possession. He just makes sure it goes into the hands of the Free French rather than Vichy France.

    2) The United States does nothing, Vichy France takes control over the canal zone. They allow Naval access to Axis warships. American heavy bombers bomb the canal to bits. Then the Marines invade and take over. Seabees are called in to rebuild the canal to U.S. Naval specifications. Coastal batteries and pillboxes are installed to thwart any Axis take over.

    3) The United States does not act because they do not want to violate their own neutrality. Vichy France takes possession of the canal. Germany gets a hold of the canal zone. They build a base of operations for the Kriegsmarine. Coastal batteries, fortifications, and U-boat pens are built. The U-boats are now in America's backyard and now are within striking distance of the Gulf of Mexico. They can also move into the Pacific to help out their Japanese allies. America now respond by moving an army thorugh central america to capture the canal. They receive support from Naval vessels from both the Atlantic and Pacific theaters of operations. Germany asks Japan for asistance. The IJN sends a few warships to help counter the threat from the Pacific. What occurs is one of the largest naval battles in history.
     

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