Wearing Nazi symbols in Afghanistan

The main raison detre...being partisans of whatever..ilk... are usually on their own land..their country..and the enemy tend to be foreign invaders... And America if ever unfortunate enough to have invading armies roaming its heartland would I presume not produce such folk or meakly accept foreign rule and armies.

 

Technically, American revolutionaries can be seen as partisans in a sense, I'm sure there may have been partisans during the whole thing with "Mexico" and Texas. The civil war even?

 

Oh yes, there were partisans all over ther Confederacy during the US Civil War, usually organized in company and battalion sized formations, and virtually all of them were horse-mounted units. Col. John S. Mosby was probably the most famous partisan ranger of them all, it could be argued that Lt. Gen Nathan Bedford Forrest, leading an independant command (cavalry corps) late in the war was the most effective. I'm certain that in current times something could be resurrected again. I really hope that something like that never has to come to pass though. Partisan warfare is not "pleasant" way to conduct business....

 

But im glad to see that like the auxilleries of 1940 britain...whos uniforms were to be discarded and normal life resumed apart from bombing and cutting throats ..that Americans would not just accept a status quo. Good on those that realise occupation s not the same as defeat. We tend to laud the old we shall never surrender bits over here . No differation is possible.

 

Would you guys have the same reaction if modern Russian soldiers started to wear 1st N.K.V.D. Division patches/badges?...

What about the "Totenkopf" itself?....I have seen several Croatian units use a Deathshead with no protests from anyone...

This reminds me of the wowsers that put restrictions on the American rock band KISS, due to the "outrage" of their runic double s....

Lets put a total ban on colour schemes as well, shall we? Anyone appearing in black and silver is fair game!!!!

Political correctness be damned.....

 

Well....I've just read that the totenkopf was in use long before WW2. The Nazi's just gave it a bad name....whatever that means....

What's really weird is that Gene Simmons real name is Chaim Witz and Paul Stanley's real name is Stanley Harvey Eisen. Both plainly jewish. Yet they choose the runic double-S as part of their band name.

I'll never figure people out. Never.

Here! Here!

The swastika is an extremely powerful symbol. The Nazis used it to murder millions of people, but for centuries it had positive meanings. What is the history of the swastika? Does it now represent good or evil?
The Oldest Known Symbol
The swastika is an ancient symbol that has been used for over 3,000 years. (That even predates the ancient Egyptian symbol, the Ankh!) Artifacts such as pottery and coins from ancient Troy show that the swastika was a commonly used symbol as far back as 1000 BCE.
During the following thousand years, the image of the swastika was used by many cultures around the world, including in China, Japan, India, and southern Europe. By the Middle Ages, the swastika was a well known, if not commonly used, symbol but was called by many different names:

• China - wan
• England - fylfot
• Germany - Hakenkreuz
• Greece - tetraskelion and gammadion
• India - swastika

Though it is not known for exactly how long, Native Americans also have long used the symbol of the swastika. The Original Meaning
The word "swastika" comes from the Sanskrit svastika - "su" meaning "good," "asti" meaning "to be," and "ka" as a suffix.
Until the Nazis used this symbol, the swastika was used by many cultures throughout the past 3,000 years to represent life, sun, power, strength, and good luck.
Even in the early twentieth century, the swastika was still a symbol with positive connotations. For instance, the swastika was a common decoration that often adorned cigarette cases, postcards, coins, and buildings. During World War I, the swastika could even be found on the shoulder patches of the American 45th Division and on the Finnish air force until after World War II.
A Change in Meaning
In the 1800s, countries around Germany were growing much larger, forming empires; yet Germany was not a unified country until 1871. To counter the feeling of vulnerability and the stigma of youth, German nationalists in the mid-nineteenth century began to use the swastika, because it had ancient Aryan/Indian origins, to represent a long Germanic/Aryan history.
By the end of the nineteenth century, the swastika could be found on nationalist German volkisch periodicals and was the official emblem of the German Gymnasts' League.
In the beginning of the twentieth century, the swastika was a common symbol of German nationalism and could be found in a multitude of places such as the emblem for the Wandervogel, a German youth movement; on Joerg Lanz von Liebenfels' antisemitic periodical Ostara; on various Freikorps units; and as an emblem of the Thule Society.
Hitler and the Nazis
In 1920, Adolf Hitler decided that the Nazi Party needed its own insignia and flag. For Hitler, the new flag had to be "a symbol of our own struggle" as well as "highly effective as a poster." (Mein Kampf, pg. 495)
On August 7, 1920, at the Salzburg Congress, this flag became the official emblem of the Nazi Party.
In Mein Kampf, Hitler described the Nazis' new flag: "In red we see the social idea of the movement, in white the nationalistic idea, in the swastika the mission of the struggle for the victory of the Aryan man, and, by the same token, the victory of the idea of creative work, which as such always has been and always will be anti-Semitic." (pg. 496-497)
Because of the Nazis' flag, the swastika soon became a symbol of hate, antisemitism, violence, death, and murder.
What Does the Swastika Mean Now?
There is a great debate as to what the swastika means now. For 3,000 years, the swastika meant life and good luck. But because of the Nazis, it has also taken on a meaning of death and hate.
These conflicting meanings are causing problems in today's society. For Buddhists and Hindus, the swastika is a very religious symbol that is commonly used. Chirag Badlani shares a story about one time when he went to make some photocopies of some Hindu Gods for his temple. While standing in line to pay for the photocopies, some people behind him in line noticed that one of the pictures had a swastika. They called him a Nazi.
Unfortunately, the Nazis were so effective at their use of the swastika emblem, that many do not even know any other meaning for the swastika. Can there be two completely opposite meanings for one symbol?
In ancient times, the direction of the swastika was interchangeable as can be seen on an ancient Chinese silk drawing.
Some cultures in the past had differentiated between the clockwise swastika and the counter-clockwise sauvastika. In these cultures the swastika symbolized health and life while the sauvastika took on a mystical meaning of bad-luck or misfortune.
But since the Nazis use of the swastika, some people are trying to differentiate the two meanings of the swastika by varying its direction - trying to make the clockwise, Nazi version of the swastika mean hate and death while the counter-clockwise version would hold the ancient meaning of the symbol, life and good-luck.

http://history1900s.about.com/cs/swastika/a/swastikahistory.htm

So which meaning do we use for the swastika in today's world, the original meaning or the one the Nazi's created?

 

Quote by Vogla Boatman:

"Lets put a total ban on colour schemes as well, shall we? Anyone appearing in black and silver is fair game!!!!"



Shouldn't that be feldgrau?

 

Dress uniform for SS is black and silver, but why not put a ban on Feldgrau as well?

My point is that symbology and colour schemes have things read into them.

Most, if not all symbology from the Nazi period was borrowed from elsewhere, so anything "on it" is purely in the minds of the "concerned". The best way to rid the symbology of any association is to keep using it in a manner that has no bearing on it's Nazi past, (wouldn't it have been wonderful to forever associate the runic double 's' with a Gene Simmons song! The thought of a large group of Neo-Nazi's becoming more concerned with "Rock and Rolling all night....and partying every day" is very pleasing....maybe this energy of youth could be re-channelled?) Banning it will for all time turn it into a rallying point for "Neos".
Soviet symbology should be viewed in a similar vein, as Bolshevism has very little to be proud of speaking of their human rights record from 1918 to the Fall of the Berlin Wall.

 

Quite simple..Idont care how untidy your battlefield is son .your on a charge..improperly dressed..get a grip lad..And get a shave before I show you how too...nazi symbols..on my uniforms...your bloody feet wouldnt touch...

 

Point taken Urghy.....

If modern soldiers do this, what does this reflect of their feeling associated with the current operations they find themselves asked to perform?

Does this reflect a subconcious GUILT as to the reason for their presense in Afghanistan? Psychologically, it has to mean something, but I see your point about uniformity, and it is a good one, from a strictly disciplinary view.

 

I wasn't taking a shot at you Volga Boatman, just throwing that in as a rhetorical suggestion you know. I understand the driving factor of youthful exuburance all too well. Many a boot was planted in my a$$ during my time in the army and the first half of my police career as well for things such as what urqh suggested. The justification attempt of "it was the thing to do at the time" never quite fit the description of a well received excuse....

 

Idont care about yer politics either son..do Ilook like yer bloody social worker..you have issues with being here..fine come with me..a58 get the hose Jugs restrain that man ..yer ere cos yer ere..tap on...come on come on we aint got all bloody day...keep yer feelings for the pub son whileyour ere youll do what Ibloody well tell you. Nazi emblems on my uniforms.. the nazis were kittens compared to what happens if I see you dressed like that you prats.

 

The Jedi Master of WW2F has spoken.

Read and heed....

 

I can't believe we are arguing about this.

Soldiers serving in foreign countries, that are technically under military occupation, have as part of their mission to win the hearts and minds of the locals. To do this they act as the representatives of their home countries. Wearing nazi items with the reputation that they have, even if innocently done, or doing anything that suggests that, goes against it completely.

KISS aren't manning checkpoints or raiding houses. And well, while the russian point is totally a derail (is there actually an example here to point to Volga, or are you just shoehorning in another bash of the USSR here for no reason?), I'd suggest that wearing anything suggestive of the Soviet Army in Afghanistan is more or less suicidal.

 

Most of us aren't arguing for it FZ, just a few think that it is cute to do silly things like wear SS regalia on their uniforms. The incident that this thread was based on could have been avoided by immediate intervention by the errant soldier's NCO. Strict discipline in a military unit is a must to maintain unit cohesion....

 

he swastika is an extremely powerful symbol. The Nazis used it to murder millions of people, but for centuries it had positive meanings. What is the history of the swastika? Does it now represent good or evil? The Oldest Known Symbol
The swastika is an ancient symbol that has been used for over 3,000 years. (That even predates the ancient Egyptian symbol, the Ankh!) Artifacts such as pottery and coins from ancient Troy show that the swastika was a commonly used symbol as far back as 1000 BCE.
During the following thousand years, the image of the swastika was used by many cultures around the world, including in China, Japan, India, and southern Europe. By the Middle Ages, the swastika was a well known, if not commonly used, symbol but was called by many different names:

• China - wan
• England - fylfot
• Germany - Hakenkreuz
• Greece - tetraskelion and gammadion
• India - swastika

Though it is not known for exactly how long, Native Americans also have long used the symbol of the swastika. The Original Meaning
The word "swastika" comes from the Sanskrit svastika - "su" meaning "good," "asti" meaning "to be," and "ka" as a suffix.
Until the Nazis used this symbol, the swastika was used by many cultures throughout the past 3,000 years to represent life, sun, power, strength, and good luck.
Even in the early twentieth century, the swastika was still a symbol with positive connotations. For instance, the swastika was a common decoration that often adorned cigarette cases, postcards, coins, and buildings. During World War I, the swastika could even be found on the shoulder patches of the American 45th Division and on the Finnish air force until after World War II.
A Change in Meaning
In the 1800s, countries around Germany were growing much larger, forming empires; yet Germany was not a unified country until 1871. To counter the feeling of vulnerability and the stigma of youth, German nationalists in the mid-nineteenth century began to use the swastika, because it had ancient Aryan/Indian origins, to represent a long Germanic/Aryan history.
By the end of the nineteenth century, the swastika could be found on nationalist German volkisch periodicals and was the official emblem of the German Gymnasts' League.
In the beginning of the twentieth century, the swastika was a common symbol of German nationalism and could be found in a multitude of places such as the emblem for the Wandervogel, a German youth movement; on Joerg Lanz von Liebenfels' antisemitic periodical Ostara; on various Freikorps units; and as an emblem of the Thule Society.
Hitler and the Nazis
In 1920, Adolf Hitler decided that the Nazi Party needed its own insignia and flag. For Hitler, the new flag had to be "a symbol of our own struggle" as well as "highly effective as a poster." (Mein Kampf, pg. 495)
On August 7, 1920, at the Salzburg Congress, this flag became the official emblem of the Nazi Party.
In Mein Kampf, Hitler described the Nazis' new flag: "In red we see the social idea of the movement, in white the nationalistic idea, in the swastika the mission of the struggle for the victory of the Aryan man, and, by the same token, the victory of the idea of creative work, which as such always has been and always will be anti-Semitic." (pg. 496-497)
Because of the Nazis' flag, the swastika soon became a symbol of hate, antisemitism, violence, death, and murder.
What Does the Swastika Mean Now?
There is a great debate as to what the swastika means now. For 3,000 years, the swastika meant life and good luck. But because of the Nazis, it has also taken on a meaning of death and hate.
These conflicting meanings are causing problems in today's society. For Buddhists and Hindus, the swastika is a very religious symbol that is commonly used. Chirag Badlani shares a story about one time when he went to make some photocopies of some Hindu Gods for his temple. While standing in line to pay for the photocopies, some people behind him in line noticed that one of the pictures had a swastika. They called him a Nazi.
Unfortunately, the Nazis were so effective at their use of the swastika emblem, that many do not even know any other meaning for the swastika. Can there be two completely opposite meanings for one symbol?
In ancient times, the direction of the swastika was interchangeable as can be seen on an ancient Chinese silk drawing.
Some cultures in the past had differentiated between the clockwise swastika and the counter-clockwise sauvastika. In these cultures the swastika symbolized health and life while the sauvastika took on a mystical meaning of bad-luck or misfortune.
But since the Nazis use of the swastika, some people are trying to differentiate the two meanings of the swastika by varying its direction - trying to make the clockwise, Nazi version of the swastika mean hate and death while the counter-clockwise version would hold the ancient meaning of the symbol, life and good-luck.

History of the Swastika

 

i think we are forgetting that not everyone knows the history of the 9th SS panzer division, we in the forums all know of its atrocities but id say 95% of the world couldnt care less about what it did. take my mother for example she is convinced that every german is a criminal, i have treid in vain to convince her that not every single german soldier is a criminal....but to no avail. also the kids at school, their highest knowledge of germany in ww2 is swatika, adolf, hitler. thats all i hear, when they brandish another child a nazi they dont say you served in the 9th SS panzer division they say your a nazi, your hitler. these soldiers obviously dont know what a H with a sword through it means ...it just looks cool so they put it on there helmet.

 

Ok I don't know if this is a great place to post my first real post on the forum but I have to agree with GermanTankEnthusuast's response about how most young people don't even really know what the meaning of the symbols are. I know growing up that almost every boy in my classes would have a swastika or a SS on their binder, or book bag written in pen, not bc we were cheering on the exploits of the nazis but bc it was the "bad thing to do". We didn't think of what the symbol meant or did most of the people honestly cared, it made the teachers mad. Now flash forward 20+ years, I have much more knowledge of the past, I understand what these symbols mean and the pain and horror they inflict (when your 12-18 most kids can't wrap their mind around such HUGE things as genocide) you would never see me writing SS on a binder now but... watch at a bus stop and you will still see the SS and the swastika on a kids bag or book. That being said its not a large leap to say that these soldiers put these symbols on their uniforms not to cheer on the exploits of the ss but for the fact that the looked good. The officers in charge on the other hand should have been like the teachers and force the behavior to stop as soon as they knew.

Mark

 

Welcome to the forum Mark, but the problem here isn’t that these were thoughtless "kids", they were officers in the Czech forces, and should have known better. Not uneducated children or teenagers.

Mon, Nov 9 08:13 PM

Prague, Nov 9 (IANS) A scandal hit the Czech Army Monday after its two commanders were found wearing Nazi symbols on their helmets during their mission in Afghanistan, media reports said.

Lieutenant Jan Cermak wore the SS Dirlewanger brigade symbol and sergeant Hynek Matonoha wore the symbol of the 9th SS panzer division Hohenstaufen.

The SS units were the cruellest of German dictator Adolf Hitler's armed forces, which actively exterminated civil populations of occupied countries during the Second World War.

Czech Defence Minister Martin Bartak said: 'Such a case cannot be tolerated.'

The government has decided to sack the officers, the MF Dnes newspaper reported.

Even today, it is a crime to boast their emblems in the Czech Republic as well as in most European countries, Bartak said.

He has ordered chief-of-staff Vlastimil Picek to investigate the case.

See:

Czech soldiers face probe after wearing Nazi symbols in Afghanistan - Yahoo! India News