LORD HAW HAW [ WILLIAM JOYCE ] QUESTIONS OVER HIM BEING FOUND GUILTY OF TREASON ?

DEAR MEMBERS ;

Having read an article on this fellow I cant help to find that an injustice
was allowed to happen for example ; he was Hanged for an act of treason
agaist the Monarchy, Yet the Kings own Brother [ Duke of Windsor ]
Had meetings with members of the Nazis Party Including Adolf Hitler.
But so many former Nazis who commited terrible sufferings to the human race escaped the hang mans noose. I strongly feel that the British Establishment have carried out an injustice on this man.....R.I.P.

 

As a "head of state", meeting with Hitler before the war broke out the Duke of Windsor was most surely NOT committing treason. Hia judgment might be suspect, but he didn’t give "aid and comfort to the enemy", since Germany wasn’t at the time "the enemy". Whereas William Joyce, as the holder of a British passport was doing just that, giving "aid and comfort to the enemy" with his broadcasts.

Although Joyce was born in the USA, brought up in Ireland and took German nationality on 26 September 1939, he was charged with treason from 3 September 1939 to 2 July 1940, the date his British passport ran out, and sentenced to death.

Joyce was confined in a death cell at London's Wandsworth Prison. In the cell next door was John Amery, the son of a British lord and the man who had tried to form British expatriates and sympathetic British POW's into a Freicorp to fight on the German side. Joyce was executed five days after Amery on 3 January 1946.

He was adamant and defiant to the end. He showed no emotion when confronted by news and scenes from the concentration camps, blaming the deaths on starvation and disease caused by Allied bombing of communication lines. He also scratched a swastika on the wall of his cell whilst awaiting sentence. His last public message reported by the BBC was "In death as in life, I defy the Jews who caused this last war, and I defy the powers of darkness they represent." He was not yet 40 years old when executed. He was buried in an unmarked grave in the grounds of the prison.


See:

William Joyce, alias Lord Haw-Haw

Joyce's trial for high treason began at the Old Bailey on 17th September, 1945. In court it was stated that although he was (a natural born) United States citizen he had held a British passport during the early stages of the war. It was therefore argued in court by Hartley Shawcross that Joyce had committed treason by broadcasting for Germany between September 1939 and July 1940, when he officially became a German citizen.

See:

William Joyce

and be sure to scroll down the Spartacus site and read the sub-links as well.

 

BTW, I most surely don't wish Joyce to RIP, especially as he was a natural born American citizen. At any rate I found a definition of treason used in the Joyce case.

Treason trials often resolve around questions of establishing whether allegiance is owed. If it's not owed, the person can't commit High Treason. There are two types of allegiance: permanent and temporary.
An example of permanent allegiance is that derived through being a national of a country. For example, I'm a British Citizen, and will remain one until I renounce my citizenship (only possible for a British citizen after the Naturalisation Act 1870). Wherever I am in the world I am a British citizen, hence, the permanent nature. The actual and physical ability of a head of state to actually exercise their obligation of protection whilst their subject is abroad was judged as irrelevant.

Temporary allegiance can be gained in several ways (as William Joyce found out to his cost). For example, if you visit or live in another country outside your home country, you have a duty of allegiance to the head of state of that other country. So if I, a British citizen, visit France I have a temporary allegiance to the French state whilst I'm on French territory. For this temporary allegiance, the French state will protect me whilst I'm on their territory. Once I leave France, I lose their protection and they lose my allegiance. As I said before, I still owe allegiance to the British head of state as I'm a British citizen.

Temporary allegiance can also be gained through, in the William Joyce case, a British Passport. William Joyce was born in New York, the son of an naturalised Irish American Father. In 1939 William Joyce left the U.K and traveled to Hitler's Germany just before the U.K declared war on Germany. For his journey to Germany he used a British Passport. By having a British Passport, the holder is entitled to the protection of the British Head of State (King George VI at the time). The fact the King, through his Government, was in no position to offer protection, should Joyce need it, was judged as no defense. While in Germany, and after war had been declared but before his British Passport expired, Joyce made several Propaganda radio broadcasts. It was these broadcasts made before his British Passport expired that made William Joyce guilty of High Treason.

See:

Spying

 

I DisAgree !

 

You are certainly welcome to your opinion; but would you mind explaining and defending it?

 

I always thought it was a technically over a passport application. In the past he had claimed to be a British subject on a passport application, that wiped away any defence. Does anyone know if that is true?

Had he not done that, would the Yanks have wanted to try him as a traitor?

 

His whole trial was unfairly judged ; He did not commit any WAR CRIMES

 

extract from stephens study room george...

The prosecution accepted that under counts 1 and 2 Joyce did not owe allegiance as he was an American citizen. However, they argued that as he held a British Passport and left the U.K on this passport he had the protection given to passport holders. As protection demands allegiance, Joyce broke this allegiance and committed treason. This point in law was accepted by Mr. Justice Tucker, who ruled that the prosecution's point in law was valid. The judged also directed the jury to find Joyce not guilty of counts 1 and 2

 

This wasn't about war crimes and the committing of. It was about committing treason.

 

BTW, started wondering, did he manage to regret being on the "loser´s side"? Was he sorry for what he did?

 

He wasn't tried for War Crimes if I recall correctly, it was solely treason they had him for.

 

To be honest, my own personal belief on him being hanged is neither here nor there. I have little opinion. His background and family history though as Clint states in his post and I have mentioned many times before....Should be looked into before the word treason is brought up...Treason to whom?

 

He gave aid and comfort to the enemy during war and was judged guilty. He was represented by counsel at trial. so why do you consider it was unfair? He was never charged with any war crimes so the fact he didn't commit any is a moot point.

Main Entry: treason trE-z/un
Pronunciation: \ ˈtrē-zən \
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English tresoun, from Anglo-French traisun, from Latin tradition-, traditio act of handing over, from tradere to hand over, betray - More at - traitor
Date: 13th century
Results
1. 1the betrayal of a trust : treachery
2. 2the offense of attempting by overt acts to overthrow the government of the state to which the offender owes allegiance or to kill or personally injure the sovereign or the sovereign's family
Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary copyright © 2009 by Merriam-Webster, incorporated

 

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Many Thanks ; For your post
Regards ; Big George.

 

Treason against the British Crown, two of the three charges of treason against him were dismissed, but the third was upheld since he owed temporary allegiance to the British as he was carrying a valid passport they had issued him. The fact he got it under false pretenses is neither here nor there, Joyce held one and until it expired he was (theoretically) under the protection of the crown. (italics from site listed)

Three years after William's birth, the Joyce family returned to Ireland. They moved around several Irish counties during the First World War years. For immigration and registration reasons, Michael Joyce obtained a copy of his son's birth certificate which was issued in New York on 2 November 1917.

In 1922 the Joyce family moved to England. Following William passing his London Matriculation examination in 1922, he applied for enrolment in the University of London Officer's Training Corps (OTC). This application was accompanied by a letter from Michael Joyce stating that "We are all British, not American citizens".

In 1922 William Joyce started studying Science at Battersea Polytechnic. A year later, Joyce left his science course and stared on a English Language, Literature with history course at Birbeck college. He graduated in 1927.

Following his coming-of-age, William Joyce married Hazel Kathleen Barr at Chelsea Register Office on 30 April 1927.

The Thirties

The period 1933-37 was a hectic time in Joyce's life. During this time, Joyce studied a one year post-graduate course in Philology, and during 1931-3 a psychology course at King's College London. Also during this time period he was a member of Oswald Mosley's British Union of Fascist's (BUF) movement. This movement had several clashes with the police. This resulted in Oswald Mosley, William Joyce and two others being tried, and acquitted, before Mr. Justice Branson of taking part in a riotous assembly at Worthing. On 4 July 1934, William Joyce applied and obtained his British Passport.

Following the dissolving of his first marriage in 1936, William Joyce married Margaret Cairns White at Kensington Register Office (London) on 13 February 1937; the marriage witnesses being Mrs. Hastings Bonora and John A. Macnab. After becoming disgruntled with Mosley's B.U.F organisation in 1937, Joyce founded his National Socialist League and Margaret Joyce became the League's Assistant Treasurer. In 1938, he extended his British Passport by one year.

On 17 November 1938, charges of assault against William Joyce were dismissed by Mr. Paul Bennett at West London Police Court. William Joyce was again in court on 22 May 1939, when charges against him under the Public Order Act were dismissed by Mr. Marshall at Westminster Police Court.

During Late 1939 and early 1940, while his British Passport was still valid, William Joyce made several radio broadcasts in English. Because William Joyce held a British Passport he had a duty of allegiance to the British crown. By broadcasting for the Germans, Joyce broke that allegiance and consequently committed high treason (See my article on the treason and treachery acts for a greater explanation of treason).

He was arrested by British Troops near Flensburg on the Danish-German border. They came across what appear to be a German civilian, whose voice sounded familiar. It eventually dawned who he was. When they challenged Joyce, he put his hand into a pocket. Thinking that he was going for a pistol, the British troops shot Joyce in the leg.
　
After recovering in Lueneberg Military Hospital, William Joyce arrived as a prisoner in the U.K on 16 June 1945. The day before Joyce's arrival, the Treason Act 1945 had been granted Royal Assent by King George VI. William Joyce was charged with three counts of high treason.

Due to the need for evidence, concerning the important question of Joyce's nationality, from the U.S.A, the crown court case was put back to September.

The Trial

On 17 September in the Central Criminal Court at the Old Bailey, before Mr. Justice Tucker and a jury, William Joyce was charged with three counts of High Treason:

1. William Joyce, on the 18 September 1939, and on numerous other days between 18 September 1939 and 29 May 1945 did aid and assist the enemies of the King by broadcasting to the King's subjects propaganda on behalf of the King's enemies.

2. William Joyce, on 26 September 1940, did aid and comfort the King's enemies by purporting to be naturalised as a German citizen.

3. William Joyce, on 18 September 1939 and on numerous other days between 18 September 1939 and 2 July 1940 did aid and assist the enemies of the King by broadcasting to the King's subjects propaganda on behalf of the King's enemies.

The trial lasted three days: 17,18 and 19 September 1945. The main arguments in the case concerned whether the defendant had a duty of allegiance to the King. If there was no duty of allegiance, then Joyce could not be found guilty of treason. William Joyce did not deny carrying out the alleged acts, he just denied that he owed any allegiance to the King.

The prosecution accepted that under counts 1 and 2 Joyce did not owe allegiance as he was an American citizen. However, they argued that as he held a British Passport and left the U.K on this passport he had the protection given to passport holders. As protection demands allegiance, Joyce broke this allegiance and committed treason. This point in law was accepted by Mr. Justice Tucker, who ruled that the prosecution's point in law was valid. The judged also directed the jury to find Joyce not guilty of counts 1 and 2.

Following the judge's ruling, the jury was left with the question of whether Joyce had made the broadcasts between the dates of 18 September 1939 and 2 July 1940 (the period when Joyce's British Passport was valid). They decided that Joyce had made the broadcasts, and they found him guilty of count 3.

Temporary allegiance can also be gained through, in the William Joyce case, a British Passport. William Joyce was born in New York, the son of an naturalised Irish American Father. In 1939 William Joyce left the U.K and traveled to Hitler's Germany just before the U.K declared war on Germany. For his journey to Germany he used a British Passport. By having a British Passport, the holder is entitled to the protection of the British Head of State (King George VI at the time). The fact the King, through his Government, was in no position to offer protection, should Joyce need it, was judged as no defense. While in Germany, and after war had been declared but before his British Passport expired, Joyce made several Propaganda radio broadcasts. It was these broadcasts made before his British Passport expired that made William Joyce guilty of High Treason.

See:

Spying

 

Fortunately, getting a British passport under false pretences has always been here and there Clint. It Abrogates...Is that a word...any protection of the crown. Therefore a charge of treason on anyone with a false passport which it is if under false pretences is not under the protection of Her Majesty's diplomatic service etc...And certainly if not a British passport holder which he was not if gained under any false pretences was not subject to our treason laws....If Adolf had got one under false pretences we most certainly wouldnt have tried him with treason.

 

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Many Thanks Members for your help / input. Good Postings..

Regards ; Big George.

 

Or this one...

John Amery - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

After the war, Amery was tried for treason; in a preliminary hearing, he argued that he had never attacked Britain and was an anti-Communist, not a Nazi.

However, these attempts at a defence were suddenly abandoned on the day of his trial, 28 November 1945, when to general astonishment Amery pleaded guilty to eight charges of treason and was immediately sentenced to death. The entire proceedings lasted just eight minutes.

Before accepting Amery's guilty plea the judge, Mr Justice Humphreys, made certain that Amery realised the consequences, i.e., that it would immediately result in a death sentence. After satisfying himself that Amery did fully understand the consequences of pleading guilty, the judge announced this verdict:

“ John Amery ..., I am satisfied that you knew what you did and that you did it intentionally and deliberately after you had received warning from ... your fellow countrymen that the course you were pursuing amounted to high treason. They called you a traitor and you heard them; but in spite of that you continued in that course. You now stand a self-confessed traitor to your King and country, and you have forfeited your right to live."

 

The Execution of Lord Haw Haw at Wandsworth Prison in 1946

Saturday, February 20th, 2010 WW2 | Another Nickel In The Machine

 

An interesting article:

Lord Haw-Haw: the myth and reality