US Not entered War and The Germans assinated hitler mid 1943

I don't know if this has previously been done But Lets assume:

After Pearl Harbour The Americans go to war with Japan only and stay out of the European Theatre( not likely but a possibility)

With the Eastern Front in retreat and Hitlers repeatedly crazy discissions the High command take hime out and take over Running all Fronts.

What is likely to happen?

 

Are we, the readers, to assume that the British have been defeated or are still in the game.

That would change everything.

First, assume the British could be defeated. The Germans would be able to focus entirely upon the Russian Front.

Think of all the axis forces tied down on the North African, Italian, and Western Fronts suddenly now able to be placed on the Eastern Front.

If the British had not been defeated I think The Second Front would never have happened. The British may have won in North Africa but they wouldn't have been able to accomplish an Italian Front and a Western European Front. It probably would have turned into a cold war of sorts with naval and air engagements the limits of warfare.

 

No, Brits are still in the game BOB happened as such, and there is a stale mate in the North African Campaign.

 

Interesting. Possibly a strategic german withdrawal to shorten the line, perhaps to the Ukraine in order to make defence easier and to still have plenty of territory with which to face Russia.

A stalemate in North Africa? Is the US still supplying Lend-Lease to GB and USSR? If so then the DAK would need reinforcing as GB directs its main effort in that region. Also Britain would have the amphibious capability to launch operations around the Dodecanese and possibly against mainland Italy depending on Italys stance with Hitler out of the game...

I think the most likely result is a stalemate on most fronts, depending on the supply of equipment, and on the flow of oil. Certainly the USSR seems to be in the strongest position, especially if it retains US lend-lease.

Peace between Germany and Britain maybe? Britains retains its Empire, gets recognised as the influencing power in Greece and the Balkans and can then direct its troops from North Africa to fight the JAps. Germany could then pull troops from many places and fight a defensive action in the East to force a stalemate there and perhaps force the Soviets to accept a ceasefire.

Unlikely that GB would accept peace with Germany occupying most of Europe though...

 

From what I have been reading about French colonial rule in 1890s-1914 there was no great affection for the Brits and visa versa, it was only circumstances made Brits and French allies in both wars.


Hitlers mistake has always been considered invading the USSR but. Had he not taken out France, and the low lands could he have avoided war with the Brits and French, and moved on Russia, the Brits and French were not in the mood for war, and no fans of communisim, they would have probably liked both have been happy to see communism and Facisim fight it out (Spanish Civil War). So lets say he takes out poland and Russia and only has a 'phony' war in the west. Is this a possible scenario?

 

But you still have the Phony War, and GB was firm in its support of Poland.

Certainly the GB had no love of the Russians early on but whether they wud just sit tight and let the Germans go east is debatable. The Germans wud need to leave alot of troops to protect the Western borders. Plus wud German have so much axis support if it hadnt just decked France and booted GB out of continental Europe?

 

Good point on the Axis support, but what axis support was worth having, Romanias elite Infantry, Italy and its military might! The Axis was Germany. I agree with you they would have had effectively two fronts from the off! That was a problem!

 

Recapitulating:

1 - Groefaz dead (sorry, no umlaut in my keyboard)

2 - "After Pearl Harbour The Americans go to war with Japan only and stay out of the European Theatre( not likely but a possibility)"

3 - "With the Eastern Front in retreat and Hitlers repeatedly crazy discissions the High command take hime out and take over Running all Fronts."

4 - GB very much in the war. France not determined in the original conditions.

"3" is a contradiction with "1", but let's give "1" priority.

So, if the Army bops AH off, they would have to deal with the SS and the Party. Let's suppose Heydrich is dead already, and Himmler is also watching the grass grow from the roots end.

Von Rundstedt is Reichspresident and Hjalmar Schacht is ReichsKanzler.

I suppose there would be a tremendous reorganization, a different General Gouvernement in Poland, under an Army general (Hans Frank, Greiser, Forster etc shot). Also in Ukraine, Bielorussia, Baltic relations with the population would be "different", so much better economic return and a large recruiting ground for Ost legions, and no partisan problem. Former Eisatzgruppen personnel employed in civilian welfare and synagogue rebuilding.

In the Reischbank a young star, Alan Gruenzpan.

The stage is set for a much better position to wage war against the USSR. Let things stagnate for a while, and in 1944 Jodl (still Ob. der OKW) and Manstein (Ob.Heer) will direct a new summer campaign, with the famous right hook starting in Ukraine going up North behind Moscow.

Oh, and active peace negotiations west, assuming AH neglected to declare war on the US at the time of Pearl Harbour, and FDR decided Lend-Lease was enough, at least until he wrapped up the Pacific troubles.

 

I don't know which is more absurd.

I hope you don't think just because Hitler gets whacked the Germans would have started being nice to the Jews.

 

I see where this is headin...

 

No..I'll be nice. Maybe I shouldn't have commented.

 

I forgot to add: "Albert Einstein is recalled, and given facilities at Die Linden* research facilities"

* loose translation for Los Alamos


You see, it's not a question of being nice, it's a question of self-interest and common-sense, a rare quality in German leadership...

 

I'm not sure if this last comment of yours is you joking or being serious.

Please tell me you are joking.

Hitler only manipulated the hatred existing in Germany, he didn't create it. My bet is that since the holocaust was in full swing by 1943 that the new leaders in Germany would have continued with the concentration camps and the Zyklon B.

I'm tired of the revisionist history that teaches that Hitler was bad but Germany was good. There was no seperation of the two.

Now, I know there were good people in Germany who disagreed with the war and despised Hitler, etc., but they were a minority.

It just seems like to many military enthusiasts are trying to paint the picture that Germans were the good guys in the war.

[ 20. August 2004, 02:37 PM: Message edited by: Archangel ]

 

This was discussed not long ago in another topic, so perhaps it is best left there? We had a topic on the role of the German people in the Holocaust.

Really? Who? Apart from David Irving...

 

Archangel, you just arrived today. Before I reply to your question, do surf around the forum, read the older threads, and notice the general tone.

Don't jump to conclusions about so and so said what, therefore he has to be a such and such.

This is a varied forum, peopled by guys (and girls) with a variety of backgrounds, but all with a primary common bond made up of a specific interest in WW2. After the primary bond is established, other bonds develop. I am quite happy to say I am in the most pleasant terms with quite a few members of the forum, and I don't remember ever having had a rougher word addressed to me, and I hope I never did the same to another member.

Just surf around and see how people address each other, how we tackle contentious points, how we discuss. And I guess I'm entitled to say "we" even if nobody mandated me to do it, because it simply is a matter of observation. Of course some of us shoot in one direction, others shoot in the other, but at the end of the day we all find ourselves around the same camp fire.

If you can fit in, fine, otherwise you'll find a us a pretty boring group. There may be other WW2 oriented forums that may interest you more. We can provide a couple of addresses if you want.

But, like I said, please surf around a bit to get a general feeling of what we look like.

 

A sensitive Stalinist?

Old Josef would be ashamed of you.

If it will make you feel better I'll let you take off your shoe a la Kruschev and bang the podium a few times.

 

that last reply of mine was supposed to be funny..nevermind.

 

All quiet on tne western front, we can move on.

 

*DP*

[ 27. August 2004, 01:00 PM: Message edited by: General der Infanterie Friedrich H ]