Stalin's Secret War Plans!

Hi;
For certain the armed forces of the USSR were in no condition to be attacking anybody in 1941. Now 1942 would have been a whole different matter. Why did Stalin place those 177 (!?) divisions on the Western borders? Well I think it had a lot more to do with doctrine ("Attack! Attack! Attack! Do not give them an inch!") than any grand territorial designs. For certain Stalin would take whatever he could get but his primary concern would have to have been the Wehrmacht. The Winter War had demonstrated Soviet weakness and the dictator was feverishly trying to update his military. It was tragic that Stalin sent his Western Armies to their doom with outdated equipment and ideologically driven doctrines.
JeffinMNUSA
PS. The Spanish Blue DIV made comment about how Soviet troops would not seek cover when coming under fire because it was against doctrine. INSANE!

 

I think population control is usually the last thing on any dictator's mind, the whole collective farm madness was about control and the imposing of unworkable communism on the masses. stalin, an obvious sociopath (as was Hitler) clearly didn't worry about the consequences for his people, no matter how disastrous, so long as his rule was obeyed!

In terms of the idea of population control, the interesting and odd thing is that such tyrants as Hitler and Stalin and their ilk, are invariably, fanatically anti-abortion. Both Hitler and stalin were extremely against it, Hitler even thought that women who had abortions should be sterilized. To Hitler, a German woman's child belonged to the state and not to her. Meanwhile these dictators had no problem at all with ordering the murder of millions of people, so long as it was justified in some ideological way. Dictators always want MORE subjects, not fewer, since this means more influence and more power. Yet these murderous dictators often seem to find huge flaws in their people who are already living, especially if they were not raised under their own rule, and to find or concoct various reasons for imprisoning and murdering them.

Possibly the most shocking example of this type of megalomania personified by Hitler and Stalin happened in Cambodia during the mid 1970's, where the mad-man Pol Pot took over and declared "Year zero". meaning, everything in Cambodia was starting over, just like that. there were only 6 million people in Cambodia yet Pol pot ordered 2 million of them murdered for any number of reasons: teachers, doctors, lawyers, real or percieved intellectuals (many people were murdered simply because they wore glasses) anyone who seemed like they could think for themselves, all told about 1/3 of Cambodia's population perished because of the insane ideas of one man, who like stalin and Hitler, seized total power and allowed no opposition or conflicting ideas whatsoever.

 

"We secured peace for our country for one and a half years, as well as an opportunity of preparing our forces for defense if fascist Germany risked attacking our country in defiance of the pact. This was a definite gain to our country and a loss for fascist Germany."

Josef Stalin - July 3, 1941 - (Speaking of the 1939 non-aggression pact between the USSR and Germany)

 

Plans submitted by Zukhov and Vatutin were offensive based. For reasons known only to the Maximum Leader, Stalin shelved them.

Red Army dispositions in Eastern Poland were offensive. There were far too many troops in the border region for a strictly defensive role. Far too many forward, not enough posted in-depth. It's a mistake that even Comrade Timoshenko remarked upon stating that the Army was " in a position to neither defend nor attack."

It brings to mind the classic error of trench warfare, 20 odd years earlier. Holding your front line with too many troops invited their pulverization, with nothing behind to plug any holes. It also brings to mind the Tsarist habit of the Russo-Japanese conflict of "cramming" their front trenches with too many troops, something that caused truly needless losses, inevitably.

Anyhow, the Generals of the Soviet Union would certainly liked to have staged a pre-emptive assault, especially Zukhov. It is to Stalin's credit that they did not, for the nature of the suprise assault meant (combined, of course with the nature of German occupation policy) meant that the Soviets had won the war of hearts and minds for their diverse peoples befor the first campaigning season was underway. Stalin fanned the patriotic flames by re-opening churches and mounting a masterful propaganda campaign that drew from old Russian heros in it's military past. Even the name given by the regime to the conflict, (The Great Partiotic War) was directly associated with 1812. That conflict had been referred to as "The Patriotic War".

Appealing to the ghosts of Suvorov and Kutezov and the sacred dead from Battles like Borodino was a clever move, a propaganda coup that Germany could simply not match in a month of Sundays.

 

SAY WHAT!? Bitter cold in summer?

 

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Thank You It's Appreciated. I thought so to quite an interesting View as a more realistic on the real reason Hitler knew the Russian's had been building up their forces.

I also found info on these sites.




Maybe Trotsky would of regretted all the nasty statements as his thoughts on Stalin reason why he made peace with the Germans. Trotsky would of stated Why didn't I think of That that's sneaky backstabber.


The amount and roads as trains leading to the front became a slow process for Stalin, in moving a million troops, Armor and supplies++++. And the fact that Stalin's plan for success was to Insure Hitler's War Machine laid in shambles after the War in Europe and since Hitler Plowed through Europe and ended in France with minimal losses.

Many have claimed for many Moons the many reasons why Hitler declared War on Russia in WWII.

I wounder if Stalin Knew of Hitler plans to invade were revealed as early as 1924 when he wrote his political testament, "Mein Kampf".

Hitler believed the Bolsheviks were a cause of Germany losing WWI. And Hitler also thought that if he was able to defeat Russia, that Britain would succumb to the power of Germany and surrender.

Hitler spoke of the inevitable battle of philosphies (fascism vs. communism) and races (Germanic vs. Slavic) for decades and wrote about the coming war between Germany and Russia in "Mein Kampf" and other places.

The main reason for Operation Barbarosa was to give Germany living space to expand. Hitlers plan was to make the Slavs living in Russia (up to the Urals at least) 'disappear' except for the ones he kept around as servants for the new German residents he would send in to colonize.

Adolf Hitler needed more resources for its hungry War Machine. Germany has a small area, with little supplies. USSR(Russia) was rich in oil and other resources, Germany needed that resource to continue the war. Also, if Hitler wanted to control Europe, he must take down USSR, it was the largest country in Europe as well as the world.


WikiAnswers - Why did Hitler attack Russia

Hubert Menzel was a major in the General Operations Department of the OKH (the Oberkommando des Heers, the German Army headquarters), and for him the idea of invading the Soviet Union in 1941 had the smack of cold, clear logic to it: 'We knew that in two years' time, that is by the end of 1942, beginning of 1943, the English would be ready, the Americans would be ready, the Russians would be ready too, and then we would have to deal with all three of them at the same time.... We had to try to remove the greatest threat from the East.... At the time it seemed possible.' (The above paragraphs are taken from chapter one of 'War of the Century' by Laurence Rees, published by BBC Publications, 1999.)

BBC - History - World Wars: Hitler's Invasion of Russia in World War Two

 

This is the explanation of a bloody dictator. No one would contradict him at that time..

He released the Nazi wardog against the rest of Europe.
That guy provided Hitler with fuel and raw materials:Barbarossa would have been impossible without the German - Soviet comercial-agreement.

 

It isn't a new discovery is it? Glantz already talked about this in When Titans Clashed. Zhukov submitted an offensive plan to Stalin after Hitler blitzed Poland, France and defeated the B.E.F.. STAVKA was absolutely shocked
there was no prolonged, grinding trench warfare and the German threat increased exponentially. Stalin rejected the plan probably because he felt Soviet Union was not ready.

Hitler said he was going to wipe out the Bolsheviks and colonize Russia in Mein Kampf. The Soviets would be fools not having a war plan against Nazi Germany and no one had the delusion that the so-called "Pact" would be anything but a prelude to war.

 

People should check the source of their article before they post. Institute for Historical Review is a hang out for holocaust deniers, affiliated with Neo-Nazis and a glorified hate group. Hitler's war with Russia was a self-fulfilling prophecy.

If your most important political pamphlet talked about exterminating a nation and your army just crushed the combined forces of every other power except the threatened nation, it is only sane that the Soviets begin to consider "alternatives". IMHO people need to get out of this Cold War mindset where everything the Russians did was evil. Millions of them died fighting the Germans so that the western democracies didn't have to shed as much blood.

 

Not only is the IHR site a notorious neo-Nazi site and always trying to put lipstick on the pig of National Socialism, so is the rense.com site. The other link provided here. Jeff Rense is forever touting the "truth of Ernst Zundel" and other such nonsense. There is even another site set up just to watch Rense:

Goto:

The Rense Watch: Rense and Zundel, Part I

The David Irving fronting site (IHR) and Rense are simply looking for any stories, see fiction, that attempt to rehabilitate the NSDAP and its leader. Don't be taken in by them, thinking that they are posting anything near history. They are revisionists and deniers trying their best to make Nazi Germany a bit less nasty and more glorious somehow in the eyes of the west.

 

I removed the Rense site no problem, I guess the rest of all the links are Kosher. I have 10 more links that support the same Info.

Ok Icci one WKKI as Source

Pat Buchanan challenges many historic taboos by claiming that Winston Churchill plunged Britain and its empire, including Canada, into wars whose outcome was disastrous for all concerned….Churchill made the fatal error in World War II of backing Poland's hold on Danzig even though Britain could do nothing to defend Poland, Yugoslavia, or Czechoslovakia from Hitler's attempts to reunite million of Germans stranded in these new nations by the dreadful Versailles Treaty. Britain's declaration of war on Germany over Poland led to a general European war. After suffering 5.6 million dead, Poland ended up occupied by the Soviet Union…Buchanan's heretical view, and mine, is that the Western democracies should have let Hitler expand his Reich eastward until it inevitably went to war with the even more dangerous Soviet Union. Once these despotisms had exhausted themselves, the Western democracies would have been left dominating Europe. The lives of millions of Western civilians and soldiers would have been spared".[70] Margolis, Eric (November 17 2008). "Deflating the Churchill Myth". The Toronto Sun.

http://www.ericmargolis.com/political_commentaries/deflating-the-churchill-myth.aspx. Retrieved 2009-10-21.

 

This whole subject seems to be a "rehash" of the discredited book Icebreaker by Viktor Suvorov. That is the pen name for a defector from the Soviet Union named Vladimir Rezun. Here is a pretty devastating review of his works.

See:

http://www.battlefield.ru/content/view/208/lang,en/

And Pat Buchanan? Please. He is such an anti-Semite and closet Hitler-lover he is probably a contributor to the Rense and IHR postings.

 

I lost most of my respect for him when he came out with “The Unnecessary war”.

I am a big fan of Churchill, and to have Buchanan make out the case that he was a bumbling warmonger who personally lost the British Empire made me very disappointed with his analysis of history.

I consider myself to be conservative, but I get really tired of blowhards like Buchanan that put down Churchill because he did not “tow the line” in just one political direction.

 

Put on your blood pressure cuff then before you read this next. Buchanan is an outright anti-Semite, even though sometimes he couches his words very carefully, and if not an outright Holocaust denier, he flirts with the idea that this "might be exaggerated".

He is also on record as being a Hitler apologist who tries to glorify the monster of the Third Reich as a "soldier’s soldier". This is also the man about whom Buchanan says:

"Hitler's success was not based on his extraordinary gifts alone. His genius was an intuitive sense of the mushiness, the character flaws, the weakness masquerading as morality that was in the hearts of the statesmen who stood in his path."

See:

Did Hitler Want War? « Patrick J. Buchanan

And:

Presidential Candidate Pat Buchanan - The Dark Side

 

Suvorov's assertions remain a matter of debate among historians. While most agree that Stalin made extensive preparations for an upcoming war and exploited the military conflict in Europe to his advantage, the assertions that Stalin planned to attack Nazi Germany in the summer of 1941, and that Operation Barbarossa was a preemptive strike by Hitler, Are Widely Disputed!

Source; Glantz, David M., Stumbling Colossus: The Red Army on the Eve of War, Lawrence, KS: University Press of Kansas, 1998.


Why did Britain and France declare war on Germany in 1939? and why not on the Soviets they invaded Poland First last I checked.

Churchill made a speech which stated they wanted to stop Germany before it became too powerful. Poland was just an excuse, the British showed how little they cared about Poland in 1945 back into Russian hands.

The Soviets also invaded Poland in 1939, and nobody declared war on them. The previous month, August 1939, the Nazis and Soviets made several secret agreements. One of them was the partition of Poland between Germany and Russia.

Britain and France had never wanted to declare war on Germany, That's not entirely true. So they tried to use diplomacy to retain peace in Europe. Hitler felt when he took power in 1933 that the Russia was the true enemy to the Germans and tried to get an alliance with Britain against communism as in his book "mein kaumf". Britain Refused twice.

Britain gave Germany 48 hours to pull out or a state of war would exist between the two countries. So at 12.00 on 3rd September after no response to the ultimatum was heard, Britain declared war followed by France at 15.45. But they never declared War on Russian when they held Poland why?

Wikki Answer

The 1939 Soviet invasion of Poland was a Soviet military operation that started without a formal declaration of war on 17 September 1939, during the early stages of World War II. Sixteen days after Nazi Germany invaded Poland from the west, the Soviet Union did so from the east.

Soviet invasion of Poland - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Red Army achieved its targets, vastly outnumbering Polish resistance and capturing some 230,000 Polish prisoners of war. The Soviet government annexed the territory under its control and in November 1939 made the 13.5 million formerly Polish citizens now under its control citizens of the Soviet Union. The Soviet Union immediately started a campaign of sovietizing the newly acquired areas. This included staged elections, the results of which the Soviet Union used to legitimize its annexation of eastern Poland.


Canada declares war on Germany
Broadcast Date: Sept. 3, 1939 you can heard the Broadcast

On This Day - Sept. 10, 1939 - CBC Archives

 

Short version. The Soviets offered a defense alliance with Poland-England-France b/c keeping Nazi Germany out was in their common interest. Poland understandably refused. Then Hitler began his diplomatic and military bluffs that gave him Sudetenland, Austria and Czechoslovakia. Stalin decided the West had no will and Russians were on their own. Hence, the attacking Poland gained Russia a buffer zone and no pre-existing promise of peace existed between those states. Germany attacked Poland with the full intention of sweeping into France, after which they could threaten Britain using France's air bases and ports.

Germany was the bigger threat, more ambitious and more immediately dangerous.

 

Germany attacked Poland ,WITHOUT the full intention of sweeping into France :Hitler had no plan to attack France,the general staf was getting the Schlieffen plan from the moth-balls.

 

Do you honestly believe Germany did not expect France to join the fray after the fall of Poland? The invasion of Poland is causus belli to the Anglo-French Alliance and you think Hitler would settle for a little front line skirmish and a treaty after all his talk of avenging the Versaille? It makes absolutely no sense. Hitler knew he was going for France, he also knew their inactivity meant he had time to draft an offensive plan.

Furthermore, how is this germane to the argument that the demonstration of German might in '41 was a very good reason for the Soviet Union to draft hypothetical war plans against Nazi Germany?

 

That Suvorov is mentioned by name in that passage should give you an inkling what Glantz has to say about the issue. Glantz rigorously refuted Suvorov's theory about the alleged first strike by pointing out how the most powerful Soviet mechanized formations were deployed in the Ukraine, not Polland as an offensive posture might suggest.

Russian build up in arms in itself proves nothing. The weakness of the Red Army was apparent even to Stalin and the emerging German threat would make any intelligent leader to arm himself.

I am not very sure what is your point here.

If you are talking strategy, German dominance of continental Europe would be highly dangerous to GB. Remember the importance Antwerp and Pas-de-Calais as a staging areas for invasion against England, as well as the threat of U-boat interdiction and air raids from German occupied France.

Morally I see no reason to justify a moral equivalence towards Communism and Nazism. A Nazi Empire stretching from France to European Russia would inflict untold suffering that would dwarf anything the communists ever could. German requisition quotas and security measures were worse than Stalin's.

 

"with the full intention ":in my opinion ,that means (your reasoning ) that Hitler,on 1 september,had as plan :first Poland,and then France .
I think that's is wrong:Hitler never expected a Western declaration of war;there were no plans for a war against the west:he had to improvise .
Your second statement,could you clarify ? I am afraid I don't understand the meaning of 'germane' .