Finland 39

Could the Soviet invasion of Finland in 1939 have a different outcome if Stalin had not carried out the purging of the army officers in 1937?

 

That's not a What-If, that's a God Knows!

 

Nice remark

A Possible outcome been less wasteful to the Soviets?

Or am I barking up the wrong tree

 

You are making woof woof sounds at the right tree, yes sir, but to be quite frank we are so much in the realm of speculation that this is difficult to reply.

Nevertheless we can make a serious comparison between the Soviet performance in the Winter War to the 1941 Winter offensive, where performance was rather different.

On the other hand one can argue that this latter offensive benefitted from the leassons learned in the Winter War.

 

Hmmm........perhaps Stalin would be toppled in a military coup before 1939?

 

The Finnish view ( well my view to begin with "):

1. The Red Army was "totally" unprepared for warfare;the soldiers were told there would be people with flowers to meet them instead they were fired at

2. The troops that were sent were not equipped for winter warfare. ( or any kind of warfare really )

3. "Kick in the door and the whole structure collapses " The Red Army troops were told that if anyone tried to resist all you´d need to do is shoot to the sky a couple of times and that should do it

4. The landscape favoured the Finns. Narrow roads in the middle of thick forests. YOu shoot the front and the last vehicle and the Red Army troops cannot go anywhere. That´s why huge columns of supply cars and army formations were cut off and destroyed. And in minus 30-40 Celsius degrees how long can you survive sitting in your cars and when the petrol runs out...

5.Who really thought of attacking in winter?! better learn to use the skis first!

---------

Of course if there had been more experienced generals than those that said "yes,yes" or rather "da,da" to Stalin things might have gone differently.Later on there were some 1 million Red Army men and the Finnish lines fell back in several places but by then Stalin did not want to humiliate his army in the eyes of the world anymore.

But seriously thinking only the childish thinking of Red Army generals who were planning the Finnish operation saved us ( or was it Stalin/Zhdanov ?). Anyway, thanx for that one!

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/RUSzhdanov.htm

 

So if Stalin had not purged the officers in 1937. Still no change to the end result. If that is the case then would it be true to say the same about when Hitler attack in 1941? As from time to time I read the fault of the Soviet fall back in 1941 was the lack of officer’s.

 

Yes, it would be inevitable that Kai the Great wouldn't jump at this one

Of course I agree, this campaign raised the word "incompetence" to an entirely new level!

Hm, I fail to see what this mass-murderer has to do with the question, at least directly, for of course the Party was paramount and especially in this period had unbelievable interference. Anyway, I'm away from my books so I can't follow the Zhdanov lead...

In any case, this interference generated incompetence, for if you did not follow the Party your army career was likely to be terminated in a torture cell. Incompetence or slow and painful death.

 

i'm not %100 on this but i read somewhere that Stalin ordered that the troops to fight against Finland would not come from the surrounding regions because a fear of sympathizers.
So instead he ordered troops from the southern regions to fight on the finish front that had little to no experience of the bitter cold weather of the region.
If true it would explain a little about the Russians poor out come and may well of gone better with the pre-purge officers sighting this flaw in strategy.

 

Unfortunately Za you probably cannot read the book on post-Winter War discussions between Stalin and the Generals during the congress on this. Probably not a big seller in Russia but a hit here in Finland some 5 years ago. Don´t know if it was published elsewhere. Anyway, even if the Generals try to say they only did what they were ordered and try to blame their colleagues for the problems it is obvious Stalin believed his generals could not fail him on the Finland issue and was a bit shocked after all. And even more suprising I think nobody was shot after the hearings.

For Zhdanov different explanations have been given. I don´t know if it´s to protect the Stalin Cult at the time but in some books it is claimed the whole Finnish operation was run by Zhdanov so that he could show how good a soldier and tactician he was. However I find it a bit hard anyone could do anything of that scale without Stalin being informed.

Camz, there were some local troops assembled as the Finnish National Army that would be used as the " Freeing force of Finland" and there was even the newly created government "Terijoki government " that was supposed to take over after Finland had surrendered. Politically these were big mistakes as the Finnish people and also the press all over the world realized this was a hostile takeover and the new government just a puppet government.

A bit later on as not many Finnish prisoners were caught these Finnish-speaking troops were sent to a camp where the local citizens of Leningrad could go see the "Finnish prisoners" ( propaganda!!) and call them names and spit over them. As they were actually citizens of the USSR the camp commander had a tough time trying to contain the people for not getting too angry with the camp inmates...

The first troops that Red Army sent were actually not well trained in many places and many of them fired their guns on their way to the front for the first time. In some cases the front line troops even got scared that they have enemy troops in the rear because of the loud shooting there. And it was just men practicing to use their guns.

It´s sometimes "funny" to see the same mistakes being repeated all over again in world history. It seems that the winter clothing and boots that were supposed to be given to the troops in Mid- and North Karelian fronts were held in Leningrad in supply stores and the men in the front fought in their "summer clothing".....

 

Damn! It should be interesting. Can you tell me the author, maybe I find a translation?

Holy mackerel, Kai!!

 

Here you go, Za!

I think this is it! Anyway, the price has come up a bit after the translation...Hope you can find a cheaper version elsewhere!

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0714652032/102-0502486-2136143?v=glance&n=283155

Stalin and the Soviet-Finnish War, 1939-1940 (Cass Series on the Soviet (Russian) Study of War) (Hardcover)
by E.N. KULKOV

The book is excellent in showing how Stalin let the conversation go on. The Colonels ( promoted to generals two weeks after the meeting ?! ) do all the talking and Stalin comments every now and then and is always right, of course!


Maybe over here you can find some excerpts ?

http://muse.jhu.edu/cgi-bin/access.cgi?uri=/journals/journal_of_cold_war_studies/v006/6.2ingimundarson.html

 

Damn! Not cheaper in Abebooks either

 

More books:

Parademarch to Finland - The Winter War by Russians view
Viktor Stepakov, Dmitri Orehov
Interviews, The Winter War 1939-1940

Interesting stuff from the Red Army soldiers´ view! Unfortunately don´t know if it´s translated to English.

-----------

Also during the Winterwar a book for the Red Army soldiers was found from dead Russian soldiers which included alot of information of Finland. So the attack did not stop because of poor information on roads etc.

This was published in 1989 in Finland and called "the Red Army march guide to Finland "

The book includes information on 21 different marching routes along the 1,000 kilometer front with detailed information on bridges, their weight limits, gas stations, even the telephone line pair numbers.

Unfortunately don´t know if this has been either translated. But what it shows that there were quite alot of spies in Finland checking these details whether they were from Russia or Finnish communists sending data to Moscow.

-------------

Also one book which is interesting and tells the POW camp story above.

The memoirs of Red Army officer Mikko Kopra. he was a pilot for the Red Army and his story was later recorded and published as a book.

I just read that by Sept 1939 orders were given to make camps for 50,000 Finnish POW´s but however by the end of 1939 only 150 prisoners were caught.

-------------

Hopeful that later on these books will be translated. Just keep the names with you if you´re interested in Winterwar stats and Red Army soldiers´ views.