America's longest war...

When the war in Afghanistan surpasses the Vietnam war today as America’s longest military engagement we should remember what even the widely disliked Robert McNamara said about that war; You cannot win a civil war with outside troops or weapons". (paraphrasing from memory)

Excluding the years of "build up" of advisors and "gifts" to prop up the unpopular South Vietnamese government, and only working from the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution to the final day of American troops officially being "in country" (March 1973) the thing lasted a total of 103 months. The war in Afghanistan began on my 52nd birthday (Oct. 7th, 2001) and as of today (June 7th, 2010) it is entering its 104th month.

And like it or not, a civil war is exactly what the thing has turned into. We find ourselves backing an unpopular government and attacking the rural people it is supposed to (but doesn’t) represent. This has morphed into a war between the affluent urban Afghans, and the poor rural peasants. We have, and continue to do Osama bin Ladin’s work for him in destroying ourselves economically.

He bragged that he had (with the help of the US) driven the USSR out of Afghan lands, and aided in bankrupting their economy. Not long after they "walked out" of Afghanistan, they ceased to exist. Bin Ladin's strategy was (and remains) painfully simple: to repeat his victory in Afghanistan against the Red Army, by driving us into bankruptcy. I gleaned these insights from a paper by Alan Grayson that I ran across in the news.

As bin Ladin puts it in his speeches, he wanted to use his "experience in using guerrilla warfare and the war of attrition to fight tyrannical superpowers, as we, alongside the mujahidin, bled Russia for 10 years, until it went bankrupt and was forced to withdraw in defeat." It may be less "easy" to do so, but with the wars now having consumed an estimated trillion dollars of America’s treasure, to say nothing of the blood shed by our troops, we might just be falling into the trap he mentioned in his 2004 speech (text in link).

We are certainly expending money, fermenting unrest in our population as well as the military, and our economy is most certainly in jeopardy after eight years of war and war spending on both construction of war material, training of more troops, and deploying same.

See:

Al Jazeera English - Archive - Full transcript of bin Ladin's speech

 

OK. What's plan B?

 

I certainly don't have one. We got into this on bad information, and bad direction. I don't have a clue how to get out or form "Plan B". Sadly I don't think anybody ever gave "getting out" a thought either, nation building isn't an easy task, and to my knowledge has a very poor track record if imposed from without. It (nation building) stands an outside chance if it comes from within and is supported from without.

 

Mr Clink First I Just Saw Today Thank you for the Rep Points are always Appreciated.

Good Link I enjoyed the Read, this Is correct Afghanistan will be the longest Military engagement even for Canada.
Not counting the Billions We Poured into Hamid Karzai and his Cronies pockets as paying of the Taliban not to attack us,
Something very wrong with that type of thinking.

This just In 20 minutes ago 10 Nato Soldiers have just been killed today.
7 are US. Two more U.S. soldiers were killed in separate attacks Monday
Therefore A total of 9.

The Associated Press: 10 NATO soldiers killed on deadly Afghan day

But is It Really? In Hindsight the American Indian Wars lasted for 320++ Years

 

As an old farmer, and understanding that both food and wealth come into the problem here might I suggest my own "Plan B"?

To add a slant on Lou’s suggestion, let’s figure out a way to get the opium growers into the legal supply side along with Turkey and southeast Asia. I mean that base for global medicinal opiates has to start somewhere.

Then while that is getting established, set them back up in the agricultural products they used to excel at but have abandoned in the past 30 + years. When the conflicts started to appear between the educated/affluent urban city dwellers and the less well off rural people, i.e. groups like the Pushtans where it seems the Taliban has its strongest base.

It has been a long time since Afghanistan was hailed for its raisins. Or for its pomegranates, almonds or 142 varieties of apricot. Today the largely agrarian country may be better recognized as the world's leading exporter of opium, but 30 years ago its major crops were of a much sweeter variety.

…What makes products like pomegranates, almonds and especially grapes so exciting, experts say, is that a plot of these legal gems can be five times more profitable than an equivalent-size plot of poppies. The drawback, however, is start-up time. "How long does it take to do each one? Therein lies the dilemma," says Dwyer, who helps run the Accelerating Sustainable Agriculture Program at a demonstration and training farm on the outskirts of Kabul. (bold mine)

The area also used to be a major supplier of saffron!

…Saffron is also a high-value crop: one kilogram can fetch $2,000 to $3,000 in the local market, says Aslami. That compares to just over $90 a kilogram for poppies.


See:

Afghan Poppy Farms: Little Take-Up for Alternative Crops - TIME

American hodge-podge efforts in re-establishing a legal agricultural system is exposed in that article where we sent a group from one area of America over to Afghanistan, and then replace them with a different group every 9 or 12 months. How can anyone expect a thing like that to "take root"? (pun intended).

 

I like Lou's plan "B", it's a little too "Brave New World" for me though. Your plan "B" is not without merit.
I prefer my plan "A" though, it involves B-52's and napalm....lot's of Naplam.

 

I'm of the opinion that the conflict in Afghanistan and Iraq are not wars. They're police actions, just like Korea, Vietnam and Desert Storm. I never saw Bush ask Congress to declare a state or war like President Roosevelt did after Pearl Harbor. All Bush did was send in the troops for some payback. The last official, legal and justified war America fought was World War 2. Ever since then, we've done nothing but participate in other countries conflicts at the cost of thousands of American lives.

My plan B is simple but very out there: tell all the Afgan people that are afraid of the Taliban they have 3 hours from the time this message is heard to clear out. After 3 hours, nuke 'em. But America is too pussifed to do anything like that anymore. It worked with Japan :i_surrender:

 

Peace....the old fashioned way....

 

I think that the Moro Rebellion in the Philippines went from 1904 to 1913, which was a tad over 111 months in length. But from the looks of things (no end in sight), it won't be very long before the current struggle in Afghanistan overtakes the Moro Rebellion in length proper.

 

This will give me a Bad Rash But Jughead makes a valid Point.

We should all pull out, Mañana with in 3 months ok Weeks, Karzai and the Taliban will Be mucho batos loco forever, Hermanos living la vida Loca. Let them Gather in large numbers and once in awhile we drop Big Drone Bombs on them and Large scale B-52's Sorties Tomahawks++++ as anything else we can through on them.

Karzai Is Talking and paying of the Taliban Big time with the $$$$$$$$ we give him. He has even stated if we don't give him more Money he will form a alliance with the Taliban.

 

That is a good point, but really since it was probably an offshoot of the very short Spanish-Ameican War, and very local against the Muslim minority, which hadn't really ever ended even when the Philippines were under Spanish control, I wonder if it would count.

I mean we almost didn't send anything into that conflict except some volunteers and National Guard units almost as a "training excercise". Wasn't the largest battle between forces of less than a 1000 on either side?

The only good thing to come out of that long but limited conflict was the man who went on to become Gen. John "Black Jack" Pershing, and the rejection of the .38 Long Colt round as a pistol cartridge.

 

Yes, it was a small affair in terms of numbers alone. The US Army had a handful of regiments involved, supported by Philippine Scouts and Constabulry forces. It was dwarfed by the Philippine Insurrection (1899-1903) in which the US Army had approximately 126,000 troops involved.

Another good thing to come out of that affair was that a lot of junior officers received combat experience to carry over into the US's involvement in WW1. Also, coordination of naval gunfire to shore targets was improved as well.

All in all, it was another dark time in our history. Upwards of 1,000,000 Philippine civilians perished in the struggle. This was largely attributed to the US policy of not avoiding combat in populated areas, "aggressive" US anti-guerilla tactics, superior US weaponry, and an outbreak of cholera late in the conflict didn't help either.

 

I agree with that statement. Many of these troops were former "Indian fighters" from the frontier garrisons, and they applied; "the only good Indian is a dead Indian" idea to the Moro Muslims. Convert them into good Christian citizens by way of the Krag rifle.

Of course a great many Americans still today wish to solve political and religious differences by military means. Sadly this simply created and creates more enemies, while not getting rid of the original problem.

 

As always, Clint, you manage to make very clear statements, in partiuclar "...wish to solve political and religious differences by military means. Sadly this simply created and creates more enemies, while not getting rid of the original problem."

Sadly, Afghanistan is a situation in which support and nation building was not provided at the right times, ie. following the Russian withdrawal, and punitive action after it was too late. The earliest actions of the Taliban restricting society, such as denying women educational rights they had for a very long time and which Muslim society gave women back in its earliest days, should have been noted by other Governments and they should have been held accountable. Afghanistan is a difficult and dangerous place to wage a war - the British tried and didn't succeed, neither did the Russians. No one has held dominion in the country for all that long over its very, very long and turbulent history. Afghanistan Online: Chronological History of Afghanistan--Part II

I've come to believe that the solution to Afghanistan will be found in understanding its past, and marrying it to the modern world in which it must now exist. It will take the development of education and knowledge both within and without Afghanistan. I also believe, that like Northern Ireland, it will take a peace movement from within - mothers and fathers will have to say they are tired of their children killing themselves and others because clerics for self-agrandizement pervert the writings of Islam and knowledge of the rest of the world.

 

Here is what grinds my gears:
The United States is expected to accepting of every culture on the planet and be tolerant to each culture's idiosyncrasies, wether they are here in the States or abroad.
[rant]
Now, the Muslim world declared Jihad on the western world back in 1979 and began to actively conduct their Jihad when they took over the US Embassy in Iran. 444 days Americans were held against their will and we did nothing military in nature. 1983 Jihadist drove a van packed with explosives into the Marine Barracks in Lebanon and the US response was was proprtionate. 1993 Muslim extremeists drove a bomb into the World Trade Center and Detonated it. 12, OCt. 2000 a boat load of explosives was detonated alongside the USS Cole while in the port of Yemen and We are all aware of 11, Sept. 2001. All of these attacks took place on soverighn United States property and all things considered, up until 9/11, the US has been pretty tolerant.

Personally, I think it is time for Allah to leave the building and if that means destroying every last vistage of his worship then so be it. Islam should be declared a criminal organization and eradicated from the face of the earth.[/rant]

As far as illegal immigration goes:
Get rid of the labor unions so companies can afford to hire citizens and still make an affordable product.
A larger portion of products sold in the US need to be produced in the US and those that are not produced here need to be taxed.
Remove the infastructure of illegal immigration: punish those that provide jobs and housing to the illegals.
If people in other countries want a better life, let them make it for themselves in their own countries.

 

Amen! Testify, testify!!!! I was trying to think of the words to say exactly what you just said, but my way was a lot more.....coarse.

 

the original version was much saltier