Waffen SS Senior Command Opportunities if War was prolonged or tide turned against the Allies?

Time Period: Post 20 July 44 Assassination Attempt

Background:

Hitler distrusts the Army. He relies more and more on the Elite Waffen SS Panzer formations and Leadership to turn the tide of war (e.g. LSSAH, Das Reich, Wiking, Hohenstaufen, Frundsberg, and Hitlerjugend).

Waffen-SS expands from the Tactical art of war to Operational and Strategic with the addition of Corps (1942-1945), and Armies (1944-45 / SS- 6 Panzerarmee and SS- Panzer-Armeeoberkommando-11)

Waffen-SS Senior Leadership (General Officers) with “Operational” experience:

Paul Hausser, a former General in the regular army, was chosen by Himmler to transform the SS-VT into a credible military organization. He was the first divisional commander of the Waffen-SS when the SS-VT (later named Das Reich) was formed into a Division for the Battle of France. He went onto command the II. SS PanzerKorps and the 7. Army (Heer unit). He served on Kesselring’s OB Sued staff as operations officer.

Felix Steiner, another former army officer and veteran of World War I. He was given command of the SS Regiment Deutschland. He has been given credit for the creation of small mobile Battle Groups and armed his men with Submachine guns and Grenades instead of Rifles and issued Camouflage clothing. He would go on to command the SS Division Wiking and the III (Germanic) SS PanzerKorps. He is also famous for Armeegruppe Steiner formed on 26 Jan 1945 in Pommerania. It initially consisted of X SS Army Corps, III SS Panzer Corps, a weakened ad hoc Army corps and troops from Wehrkreis III together with whatever units were available, both SS and otherwise. In April of 1945, Steiner was instructed to make an attack to try and dislocate the the threatening Russian advance on Berlin. At the end of the war the Armeegruppe was located at Eberswalde, and having been virtually obliterated, consisted of hardly more than its headquarters staff. Almost to the very last moment, Hitler waited for Steiner to rescue Berlin from the Soviets and so prolong the war which in reality had been lost long before.

*Josef "Sepp" Dietrich was a former Army sergeant with a peasant background, who commanded the forerunner of the Waffen-SS, the Sonderkommando Berlin. He would command the Leibstandarte SS Adolf Hitler from its inception to Regiment, Brigade and Division. He was then given command of the I SS PanzerKorps Leibstandarte and by the end of the war was the commander of the 6. SS Panzerarmee. (*NOTE: I do not believe he could have gone on further based on talent but could have based upon his intimate relationship with Hitler and is undying loyalty to the Fuehrer.)

Wilhelm Bittrich, served as an army officer and fighter pilot during World War I and was also a member of the Freikorps [1]. He joined the SS-Verfügungstruppe in 1934 and the Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler in 1939. He was in command of the Deutschland Regiment during the fighting in Poland (1939) and France (1940). Later he assumed command over the 2nd SS Panzer Division Das Reich and the II. SS-Panzerkorps (Hohenstaufen & Frundsberg Divisions). He is perhaps now best remembered for his contribution to the defeat of the failed allied airborne offensive Operation Market Garden which took place in the Netherlands in September 1944. Bittrich also commanded a corps in the German defense against the Vienna Offensive from April 2 to April 13, 1945.

Herbert Otto Gille, was a German general, and as a winner of the Knight's Cross with Oakleaves, Swords and Diamonds and of the German Cross in Gold, the most highly decorated member of the Waffen SS during World War II. By the end of the war he held the rank of SS-Obergruppenfuhrer und General der Waffen-SS. began his military career as a first lieutenant in the artillery branch during the First World War and won the Iron Cross First and Second Classes. He commanded the Artillery Regiment of the Wiking Division later commanding said unit. He went on to command the IV SS PanzerKorps

Question: Did the Waffen SS leadership "peter out" (exhaust the extent of their experience and talent) or could they have gone on and commanded larger formations (talent and opportunity) given the war was prolonged and the tide turned against the allies? In other words ... Could the above mention personalities have the necessary experience and talent to handle a Army Group or Theater if given such responsibilites?


v/r

Armgruf u. GenFld der Waffen SS

 

Does silence or no response mean confirmation that NO Waffen SS commander had the ability to assume command of any formation higher than an Army? So no Heeresgruppe or OB were in the cards ...even "Papa Hauser"?

 

I can start things off if no-one else will.

Steiner IMO is the only one who was not promoted beyond their abilities in reality, however I suspect if he had gone further he would have fallen foul of Hitler as he was an innovator, but not reckless.

I don't think the rest of the W-SS leadership especially Dietrich would have stepped aside for a lower man to take over, so i think there would have been a big infight.

Dietrich himself might have made a mediocre army commander, and not as bad as some, but never good enough to make any difference or to compete with the best commanders.

Gille I know next to nothing about, he seems to have had a promising start.

 

I'm not enough of an expert to voice much of an opinion here but I will point out that this is a rather unusual what if. Rather than pick a POD and asking how the situation will develop the question centers around the command capabilities of a group of officers. This might have gotten a quicker response on one of the other boards as it's my impression that some tend to avoid this one. On the otherhand I'm not sure where else I would recomend putting it. I will say I find it one of the more intrigueing what ifs even or perhaps because it doesn't conform to the norm for one.

Well back to lurk mode.

 

IMO I believe "Papa" Hauser was the frontrunner for higher command. He and Steiner were not on the best of terms although each in their own ways, were the architects of the Waffen SS. Regardless both were very capable officers even if Hauser thought Steiner was the “spoiled child” of Himler. Steiner’s strength lied in “tactical” art of warfare.

As far as Dietrich, I do strongly believe that “Sepp” went as far as he could but then again promotion was not based upon abilities but rather results and loyalty. Dietrich would have continued to surround himself with capable junior officers. However, General staff (im Generalstab) qualified officers were far and few between but were supplemented by Army officers.

v/r

Armgruf u. GenFld der Waffen SS

Gille was upcoming and if given more time and experience certainly would have gone on further with higher commands.

 

Have you considered the possibility of the SS being authorised to recruit senior officers from the Wehrmacht? Would any have come willingly, if perhaps they thought the days of the Wehrmacht were coming to an end?

 

Nigel

Interesting concept ... although factual that there were Wehrmacht officers who came over to the Black Corps in the beginning many more were "strong armed" into the burgeoning new divisions (21 on and on), as well as, other Wehrmacht Officers out of a job (Luftwaffe and Kriegsmarine), I am not convinced that senior Army Officers would have stepped forward. I do not believe that Hitler, although suspicious of the Army, would have put forward a move to rid it. He was already tripling his protection squads and did not need another 20 July event (laughing).

Also if war prolonged Goering was still trying to regain favor with Hitler and promote his Luftwaffe even if it was ground units and few A/C. Not to turn into a new string the timely introduction of ME 262s would have made Goering a hero again. His Fallshirmjaeger (Later name only) and name unit HG now a complete Corps could have counterbalanced against the Waffen SS.

v/r

Armgruf u. GenFld der Waffen SS

 

think you're probably right but I haven't thought about that before.

On a separate note - is there any way you could make your member name on two lines - it doesn't really matter, but it messes up the format of the posts pages so it is a lot harder to scan through them in a hurry. If not possible don't worry about it.

 

Not sure how to do that ... may talk to Slipdigit and see what can be done

 

thanks if you could - i had a look too and can't figure out a way

 

Kesselring was aLuftwaffe officer and made it to Armee Group Commander, so it seems possible.

 

Kesselring was very talented though, and had been an artilleryman IIRC before joining the Luftwaffe

 

Personally I think it was Hitler who crippled the army commanders by making them request for any defensive/retreat action or transfer of even the smaller units.By the time there was an answer, the situation would be over, and probably the units lost or the counter attack would not make any difference anymore. In that sense it would not mean much who it was leading the units, as they were in the end lead by Hitler. Or to be honest, very poorly lead.

Häusser, Steiner and Gille definitely in my view could have been in charge of army groups, but Hitler chose Himmler...

 

Belasar

*Caveat (Sorry for the late response, however, have been down for severe back spasms)

Point taken ... remember that “Papa” Hauser was on Kesselrings’ staff and was highly thought of by "Smiling Albert". Quite an honor especially since Kesselring handpicked his staff and did not take in second rate officers regardless of connections.


As far as Himmler and an Army Group ... was truly only one available rest were preoccupied with the allies breathing down their necks. Besides Himmler practically begged Hitler for the command but soon regretted his decision as even he could not look himself in the mirror and say "I see a soldier" in the reflection. Himmler was not highly thought of by the Waffen SS who by then were more "Army" than "Asphalt Soldiers" of days gone by.

Operational Art of war is something not learned overnight. The tactical level is hard enough but easily learned in the field overtime. The SS Panzerkorps were very skillfully led and had some of the only victories the Wehrmacht had in 1943 (e.g. 3rd Battle of Kharkov). To take the next step to Army and Army Group is a very big undertaking.

The Germans were adept enough but when it came to the Strategic, Hitler - who held court was himself woefully uneducated for this level. It is tough enough for professionally trained Armies (GO's) to learn yet alone self proclaimed dictators. On the other hand, I believe that Hitler did have an eye for talent and would give true commanders the rein if on a short leash (Von Rundstedt reinstated). Also, remember Kesselring was first a Luftwaffe (true Air) commander – evident in the Battle of Brittan then later acquitted himself as a very successful defensive tactician (Sicily/Italian Campaign) of ground troops.

I think Gille was a rising star or "Pip" and Hauser still held favor with Hitler. Deitrich would have put up a stink but a Million Deutsch Mark payoff (previous gift) as a reward and a Title (Highest rank) could have allowed for his timely retirement or a cosy post to spend rest of days.

v/r

Armgruf u. GenFld der Waffen SS

 

Don't forget that some of the victories attributed to certain units are often more about logistic preferential treatment, poor enemy performance, or just luck rather than specific leadership skill.

 

Nigel

Good Morning or Good evening. The Battle of Kharkov was against a very determined enemy that its defeat of the Red Army led to Kursk ... if Hauser had his way there would have been no pause as they had the Red Army on the run again. Alas ... Hitler (stuck in WWI tactics) also errored on caution, stopped, fitted (logistics) an allowed for the bleed-dry Kursk debacle.

The Fire Brigade methodology of using Waffen SS forces was IMO the best training for Corps or higher commands as it gave the "true picture" of the front allowing the commanders to "walk the ground" and understand the strengths & weaknesses of friend and foe alike. The groupings were not all homogenous and included other Wehrmacht parings giving again additional experience of working with Luftwaffe and Heer ground units.

Logistics and TTPs are crucial for Operational Art of War. But Plain dumb "luck" has its role for sure ... too many examples to list for on both sides.

always a pleasure

Armgruf u. GenFld der Waffen SS

 

Just a reminder ... that the truest definition of "Operational Art of War" is the ability to field Armies and to sustain them in campaigns directed against a foe in pursuit of strategic objectives beset by the government. This is not to be confused with Strategic level, albeit intertwined. Even to this day the Soviet (now) Russian Army is the most theoretically advanced and profound in terms of thinking about the nature of future wars, the requirements for waging them, and about the conduct of operations (the actual practice of that theory). Debates continue regarding the nature and scope of the operational level, and its strategic and logistical requirements.

The concept has to be allied to an economy and military that is able to provide the material wherewithal for realizing its practice. Arguments can be made that the German Army was not as advanced in this art as their counterparts as Barbarossa was the litmus test to the scope and breath of the undertaking.

Men like Tukhachevsky, Svechin, Triandafillov, Isserson, and other Tsarist-or Soviet-trained military thinkers grappled with the most profound questions related to the nature of future war and how to achieve decisive strategic outcomes when thousands and even millions of men were mobilized across an enormous front in a "war of machines." - they had too based on the vastness of the empire whereas European armies wrestled with mere kilometers (i.e. size of New Jersey). This also led to novel ideas like paratroopers (to get forces into remote areas - another thread).

At the bottom end of Operational level is the Corps. This is the mere catalyst that harnesses the resources and obtains the strategic goals of the government through military might. NOTE: I was astounded in 2005 to hear an American GO admit to our Russian counterparts we were infants when it came to operational art but we ruled the roost in the tactical realm.

v/r

Armgruf u. GenFld der Waffen SS

 

If looking at the original proposition from the bottom up, it appears that all the SS higher commanders named had the ability to make men want to fight for them, even men who weren't German, although the Nazi ideology obviously played some part, even dedicated Nazis aren't going to want to fight for an officer who does not have merit in his current or at least previous rank.

If you couple this soldiers preparation to fight for them with their arguably better ability to work with Hitler, for better or worse, these men might have made more effective commanders than the army men.

Towards the end of the war too many of the army senior commanders were disillusioned in a way not seen among the SS. Some were getting a little old for the job as well, and there is no reason to think that any of the SS seniors couldn't have done at least as well as the middle quality army men.

The issue of lack of staff background and training would probably mean they had failings dealing with army senior officers, logistics and inter service cooperation and planning, but few other than Manstein managed to do this well anyway, regardless of service branch

 

Well said Nigel!