Best German Fighter???

This should be interesting. I don't know much about German fighters. I spend most of time on American fighters and Spitfires. I think that it was probably either one of the Messerschmit models, Folke-Wolfe models, or Junkers models. Realistically though I don't think it could've been the 262 because it came too late in the war to have any real impact. Couldn't have been the 109 because even though it was great in the beginning it couldn't keep up with the newer fighters. And that it couldn't have 190 because if you put that thing into too steep of a dive, that thing wasn't coming back up. It couldn't have been the 88 because it was really more of a bomber than a fighter. So that only leaves the 110 and the Ta-152. Which I really don't know much about. I just thought I'd set up this topic for Friedrich. I stand by my earlier statement, it was probably either one of the Messerschmit models, Folke-Wolfe models, or Junkers models.

 

FW-190A8-the ultimate 'Butcherbird'...

 

I've thought about this topic for the past day or so......hmmmmmm. Still think about the statement I made earlier in another post. It depended on the application. Whether a day fighter or night fighter ? For nachtjäger it would have to be the Ju 88G-6 and the Me 262A-1a. I know the latter is the usual day fighter version but it did quite the job against the Mossie LSNF in 45, but too few too late.
For day fighters......Yike's ! Ah well I still think the Tank Ta 152 was one of the best Luftwafe a/c ever made but again too late to make a favorable impression. The Bf 109 variants were standard and made their mark but could not stand up to the P-47 or the P-51. The Fw 190A-8 and the heavier Sturmböcke are on my favoirte list as the FW 190 was an excellent arms platform. Carried heavy armor and ploughed through the US bomber formations like a charging knight, suffering in due process from the waiting P-51 escorts just outside the .50's of the B-17's and B-24's.

Horrido !

E

 

Didn't we already discuss this subject about 2 months ago?
I think we all came to the conclusion that it was depending on the pilot, not the aircraft!
Example: You put Erich Hartmann in an Me109, and I'll put him up against any British or American fighter! and he'll win!
Or you could put Walther Nowatny in a Fw190, and do the same, and he'll win too!

I agree with Erich. It depends on the mission.
For attacking bombers during the day I would have to say the Me262, or Me109.
For low lever fighter to fighter I would go with the Fw190. For high level fighter to fighter, I would have to say the Fw190d or Ta152.
For night fighter to fighter I would say the Me110 or Ju88.
For night fighter attacking bombers I would say the Me262, or Me410.

But again I would say that the pilot is the key here. If I had to pick just one as the best fighter.
Going by just kill numbers would have to be the Me109. It shot down more allied planes than any other German fighter!
If you go by what was the best at the end of the war, it would be the Ta152, the fastest single engine figher of the war! Plus it had STYLE!!

Matt

[ 04 October 2002, 09:45 AM: Message edited by: mp38 ]

 

I've never heard of an Me. 410. Just how fast did the Ta-152 go? I really don't think that it was the fastest single-engine fighter of the war. If you were talking just about German single-engined fighters then I'd believe you. The 262 had two engines plus I don't know much about the German Luftwaffe. Yet.

 

Ok I'm confused, maybe it's the bug I'm still fighting.....

The Me or Bf 410 was most often used in the bomber destroying role against US bombers from October 43 till July of 44 when the twin engine crews were re-assigned to single engine fighter gruppen. Armed with possibly 8 20mm cannon and 4 Br 210mm rocket launchers this twin engine job was a nasty bomber killer. It was to replace most of the Bf 110G-2 gruppen during the winter of 1944.
Kurt Tank was flying an experimental protoype of the Ta 152, a C version and was jumped at ? altitude by 3/4 P-51's. Kurt put the thing in gear and flat out lost the P-51's in the dust !
Here is the storuy for the time being. Lurt Tank, a designer of the Ta 152 went to 45,920 feet and succeeded in reaching a speed of 463.6 mph at 42,640 feet. But it was late in 1944 when this performance was life saving. Kurt was caught by P-51's while taking off from Langenhagen for a staff meeting at Cottbus. Just after he lifted off the tower warned him, four indians at the garden fence. Glancing over his shoulder he saw 4 Mustangs rapidly overtaking him. Tank shoved the throttle forward to War emergency power, kicking in the methanol-injection (MW 50 boost)at the same time. The P-51's never caught the new fighter, which disappeared safley into the ahze. Such was the outstanding performance of the Ta 152 as demonstrated by no less a pilot than the designer of the a/c himself.
will look into more on the operational H model. some accounts have said that Kurt was flying an H-1 on this flight......

E

 

SSSssshhhhh Erich. You're not supposed to make the Mustang look bad. You did it twice. When did the Ta-152 first come into service. I'm trying to learn more about the German Luftwaffe.

 

Initial testing was done in December of 44 and then ops in january of 45 with III./Jg 301. These were ex-pilots flying the Fw 190A-8 and A-9 with alot of guts. Most of they guys at this time had seen very severe action in November through December of 44 and were very eager to try the new piston engine jalopy. 4/5 of the pilots tested the a/c at altitudes of almost 50,000 feet to see if there was any buckling of the wings, if the engine compressor would take the stress and if the MW 50 injection would actually take a longer venue of action instead of the brief 7-10 minutes of accelerated power. Dives were practicised as well to test the blacking-out procedure and of course in the dive, severe uplift and banking to again test the strain of the wings. They were longer and much more taped than the Fw 190D Dora. Flat speed trials were also conducted at certain heights of 32,000 feet to 45,000 feet, the average seems to be around 42,000 feet with the speed in the 460 mph range. Once guy clocked in at over 497 mph and I am looking for his account. Of course in any dive any a/c is going to accelerate beyond the norm. Every pilot in the gruppe plainly said the a/c flew itself, you didn't have to baby the controls, fast and responsive, in fact the fastest a/c any of them had ever flown. Obviously they had never flown a Me 262....

E

 

Thanks Erich. Those guys must've had a lot of guts!!!

 

Two of the pilots, Will Reschke and Walter Loos later served on Stab./Jg 301 flying the Ta 152 H and I have several pics of the men. The look in their eyes tells all..... ! I am a fighter pilot !!!

E

 

Erich,

I have to agree with you! I just love the long nosed 190s and Ta152s! They have one at the Chaplan fighter museum in Phoenix, AZ. When I was there I spent all afternoon just staring at it! I was in complete awe! Then at the end of the day, one of the mechanics working there had noticed how taken I was with the aircraft. The museum was closing, but he asked me to stay. At the time I was a engine mechinc in the USAF. After it closed they opened the hanger and took the FW outside and ran it! I have never heard such a beautiful sound in my entire life! I wish I would have had a video recorder to tape it! It was true love! To this day, if that guy ever offered me a job, I would move down there, and take it in a second!

Mustang, sorry to burst your bubble on the Mustang! I thought everyone knew the Ta152 was the fastest single engine fighter. The Me262 was not the fasted figher either! That honor belongs to the tiny little Me163.
Do you know what the fastest piston powered fighter was? (hint, it had 2 engines!)

Matt

 

My money goes to the Messerschmitt Me-109 in all its versions, because of its combat records and technical qualities in all its versions. It was for a while the best and fastest plane in the world. Beside, in the hands of an experienced pilto it could shoot down ANYTHING. And definately, my favourite version is the Me-109K which also came very late but it could face the P-51 and the latest Spitfires. It could reach a speed of 737 kilometres/hour! Beside it was manouvrable, had heavy weaponry and the cockpit was pressurised. I like it! But my babe is still the Me-110 which was a good plane after all.

 

Things I have read:

The Me 410 was the later versio of Me 210. The me 210 was supposed to be taking over the 110´s in 1941 but had some problems with the production, and the guys with Me 110´s had to keep it going until 1944, I think.The version was called Me 410 later on.

The Me 109 was a great plane except for poor visibility during take-off, and the steering turning the plane to the left (?) It made a lot of kaputt planes. If you made corrections during take off you might have died quite easily,as you made over-correction, so the first part was to make the flight with Me 109, sounds nice, eh? After that you were a winner??

My favourite is Fw 190. Maybe the "Lang naase " if you prefer. Great looks and a killer!

 

The Spitfire was an Me 190 killing machine. The only plane the Spitfire had real trouble with was the Fw 190. The Mustang took care of that though. If you put the Fw190 into too steep of a dive then that B-1-Rd wasn't coming back up. As for fastest twin engined fighter my guess is the P-38 (when put into a dive). Wasn't it the first American plane to break the sound barrier in a dive?

The P-51H had a top speed of 487 mph.

 

Mustang,

The fastest "Piston Powered" fighter of WWII was teh Dornier Do335. Called the "Arrow" because of its' tail shape. This plane was a twin engine fighter built into a single engine body. The two ingines were both inline with the fuselage. This "center line thrust" design had much less drag than a standard twin engine plane (like the P38), while doubling the horsepower of a single engine fighter (like the mustang). It had broad wing span that was quite large, tricicle landing gear, and two Daimler Benz 603LA engines with two-stage super chargers! It was heavy armed with 3 cannon and two machine guns. They built a single seat fighter, and also a few two seat night fighter/trainers.
I'm not joking when I say that this plane could've spelt disaster for the allies!
However, like most of the German "wonder weapons", it was simply "too little, too late"

The Do335 is one of my favorite planes though. Does anybody know if/were there is one today?

Matt

[ 07 October 2002, 02:44 PM: Message edited by: mp38 ]

 

How about the next generation of British piston engined" wonder weapons "
The Supermarine Spiteful,( the next generation Spitfire) one of the prototypes reached a speed of 494 mph in level flight. First production aircraft March 1945.

The de Havilland D.H. Hornet, ( single-seat Mosquito) Top speed 472 mph. First production aircraft March 1945.

 

Matt. Wouldn't a wing span that is too large provide less maeuverability? I'm sure that larger wings could hold more rockets though. Didn't the Mustang eventually carry two-stage two-speed superchargers as well.

Redcoat, both of those planes were very fast, but......the first production date of both these planes was March 1945. About a month before the war in Europe came to an end.

 

Müstang :

Just to throw a curve into this picture. The Bf 109G-6/AS was first in ops with II./JG 11 in the spring(April) of 44. This developed later into the G-14/AS and the G-10 variants with the G-10 being the fastest of all 109's.
In our interviews with suriving 10./JG 300 veterans flying the Bf 109G-6/AS and catching the Mossie LSNF bomber by the way. There was a pilot, actually a staffelkapitän of the oversized staffel who had his a/c painted in all RKM 76 blue, even the spinner. Every nut and bolt was smoothed over with putty and the finished was buffed out to a high gloss with spray on finish. The mechanics were specially chosen for this high altitude staffel and this particualr a/c could click in over 450 mph.... ! pretty dang fast for September 44 eh...
The two stage supercharger installed into the G-6/AS accepted the the coolant MW 50 which gave upwards of 10 minutes duration before the engine would slam shut. The losses reported by the staffel were due to just this; blowing the pistons right out of the engine at max altitude while chasing the mossies. more in the book to come.

E

 

Great information Erich! Do you have any more information on the Do335 Arrow?

Matt

 

Matt :

I will have to look a bit for info. The a/c was still so experimental. Such high hopes and all in the testing phases. The techs should of stuck with one prototype and gotten the a/c back onto the front even if there would have been only 50 a/c to a single unit it could well have made things interesting for Allied forces. I do think we are going to cover the experimetns with the a/c in the night fighter role in our book. Also interesting that the a/c was to use the 55mm a/c cannon for the first time.....ouch ! As for the two seater the radar developments were a bit old, still using the standard SN-2d set but equipping the radar aerials in the wings......now you've got me thinking so I'll have to go check.

E