Best Tank (1939-1940)?

Ok, we've talked about some of the best tanks of WWII. However most of them came later in the war. Lets' say it is 1939, and you are going into battle in a tank. Which tank would you want to be in?

Matt

 

I'll have to go home and refresh my memory later, but... the short answer...

the British Matilda. Slow as heck, and the gun was relatively weak. But the armor could stop almost anything short of an 88. And the relative weakness of the gun was balanced out by the other tanks from 39-40- as most of them either had a similarly small gun, very light armor, or both...

And it was named after a cartoon duck (correct?).

 

StuGIII. Low silhouette. Pretty good gun for the time. The Pzkw IV was out but had the low velocity gun so I would stick with the StuGIII.

 

PzJgr, I'm 95% sure that the StuG III also had the same low-velocity gun at this time- the 75mm L/24. I'm pretty sure the StuGs were not up-gunned until mid 42. I'll check on that tonight.

Regardless of the gun though, that is a good point. Consider this- while we are discussion tanks from 39 and 40, we can still look to the later years. What I mean here- one of the greatest advantages of the StuG series was the ease of up-gunning and up-armoring. Throughout the war, the basic StuG III did not need to be changed much at all, despite the fact that it was able to mount progressively more armor and larger guns. That's a major advantage.

 

Haa! I´ll take advantage of our conversations over Russia...The production started in June 1940.Yes, it is the feared T-34!! Who likes to play with pre-Tiger German tanks..

 

1939-40 British Matilda Mk II( the Mk I was only armed with a HMG, and was the ugliest tank ever made )
1941-43 T-34
1943-45 Panther ( after the teething troubles were ironed out )

 

I would definitely pick the Soviet KV-1 heavy tank. It saw first action in the Russo-Finnish war in 1940, and had a 76.2mm gun, pretty heavy for that time. It was also considered very reliable and was really only outmatched when the Tiger showed up.

 

No T-34's or KV-1's people, the year is 1939 remember...see first post!

I would say that the Pzkpw IV(D) was the best overall tank of 1939.

The Matilda II was the best Allied tank to use against the Germans in 1939, because the German tanks were only lightly armoured at this time. But if the Matilda II ever had to fight the French Somua or Char B tanks, its relatively small 2 pounder gun would have had a difficult time penetrating the heavy frontal armour of these two French tanks, and the Matilda is too slow to quickly maneuver into a better firing position. (Although the French tanks would have similar problems penetrating the Matilda's frontal armour.)

Whereas the Pzkpw IV(D) had only half the armour of the Matilda, but had a more powerful gun equipped with better optical sights, and was fast enough to outmaneuver or evade the Matilda II and Char B, and it could fire more efficiently than the Somua which had a one-man turret. (That means one man to command the tank, and load and fire the gun - the Pzkpw IV had a three man turret which was far better.)

Overall the Pzkpw IV is the more versatile tank, especially for Blitzkreig type operations, even if it is not the toughest.

 

Somau S-35 was an excellent tank, well armed and armoured. Matilda II was a little slow, but took some stopping.

The German stuff was pretty poor on the whole, that little 37mm gun being a bit feeble, and even the PzIVD's protection proving too weak for it to be able to do it's job properly. Pz38t perhaps the best.

Jumbo

 

Crazy, I'm in agreement with you. I'm sure it did have a low velocity gun but with the advantages of the low silhouette, it's speed, ease of maintenance, it could make up for it. As you have pointed out, later years major upgrades were made to this versatile vehicle. Another major advantage, it was cheaper to build then the turreted armour.

[ 09 October 2002, 10:30 AM: Message edited by: PzJgr ]

 

Herr vonManstein- while your post says 39, the topic title says 39-40... Which range did you have in mind?
Of course, we could probably do this year-by-year!

How could I forget about the T-34??? Really, my brain must have been on vacation yesterday. If we are including tanks from 1940, then the T-34 wins, no competition. Well, I guess the KV-1 could come close, but I'd say mechanical advantages put the T-34 over the top- better maintenance, better gas mileage, faster, and slightly better armor, in my opinion.

But, if we are only going for 39... or, if we exclude the russian tanks, then it gets a little tougher. The Matilda was a great tank, but Jumbo brings up some good competition... the S-35. (I was thinking of some of the smaller Frnech tanks yesterday, but the names eluded me!) The S-35 was competent on the battlefield- 45mm gun, decent armor, good mobility and speed. Plus, if I remember correctly, the S-35 had some features that were ahead of it's time as far as tanks goes... The S-35 used a self-sealing gas tank, a feature found in most later tanks.
Main disadvantage for the S-35 was the one-man turret. The commander had to command the tank, load, aim and fire the gun all by himself. This really limited the tank's battlefield performance.

PzJgr, good points. I would say that during 39-40, the StuG III was probably better than most of the turreted german tanks of the time. Even though it only had the 75mmL/24, this was still a decent gun for the time. In 39-40, only the russian tanks really mounted decent guns. Everyone else was still using light guns (like the 50mm in the PzIII). So the StuG III's armament was not too bad. And you're right about the cost and simplicity, not to mention the great battlefield record the StuG's had throughout the early years of the war. The main problem was, like all early german tanks, armor... that would be the main reason I'd go with the T-34 or Matilda- the armor could take far more of a beating than the StuG.

 

The thread title says 1939-40, but the first post says in the text:

 

Somua S-35 had cast armour hull in two halves, one on top of the other, bolted together. Hit the join between the two halves and the armour splits apart down the whole length of the tank.

45mm is good gun, but the one man turret was a major disadvantage. Under stress the gunner would be rushing so fast to get in the next shot that he would often mess it up and miss.

Many French tanks had poor radios or none at all, which hindered cooperation between tanks. Good radios in all vehicles helped German teamwork immensely, and helped small numbers of PzKpw 35(t)'s, 38(t)'s, III's and IV's defeat superior numbers of French tanks. (The large numbers of PzKpw I & II's in 1940 were only targets in a tank battle.)

 

Technicalities, if 1940 is involved then I must bow to the T-34. I went by the first post.

 

Gotcha. I was going by the topic title. Ooops!

For 39 only, I'll stick with the Matilda. That massive amount of armor probably made the Matilda the safest on the battlefield in 39.

 

If ONLY '39 tanks are allowed...then the T-34 rules the day. If I can't use Russian tanks, then it falls to the Matilda or S-35. Pz IV after them.

 

I meant 1939 "the begining of the WAR!" I mainly added 1940 to include the Western tanks. I wasn't really thinking of the Russian stuff. So no T34s or KV1s.

Yes in 1939 the StugIII did have a low velocity gun. Same gun as the PzkfwIV. However, the Stug III is not a tank! it is a self-propelled gun! Later called a "tank destroyer".

It was a really a tough choice for me! I'm surprised nobody listed the two Czech tanks that made up the bulk of German armor in 1939-40? The Pzkfw 38t and Pzkfw 35t. These two tanks were very fast, good armor for the time and a decent gun (ok not the greatest) but much better than that low velocity gun for dealing with enemy tanks! One key part to these two tanks, reliability, and gas milage! These tanks were such a reliable and robust design that later in the war the chassies were used to make up the bulk of German self propelled guns and artillery, such as the following:
Nashorn, Wespe, Hetzer, MarderIII, and a few other I think?

My first choice, (surprised nobody said this one either!) Would be the PzkfwIII! This tank was the "backbone" of the German panzer foces throughout the war! It first enter service in 1936. Excellent performance, reliable, good armor, good gun. It could hold 66 gallons of gas, and cruise at just over 20mph! and could be filled up at a gas station(which the Germans did do during the invasion of France!). Range was just over 93 miles! Gun was a 37mm L/45, and 3 MG34s! It could carry 150 rounds, and wieghed just over 15 tons. A great tank to have in 1939, and I think I would have preferred it to any other!

My second choice would be the French Char B! The toughest tank of the early war! Definately a brut, however I didnt' like the singe man turret, dual gun design.

Matt

 

What I always found odd about the S35 is that it had a loader/radio operator, but he was on a tall stool able to pass ammunition up to the commander but still in the main body of the tank. But most sites say that there was no "functioning" radio, so he may have been the most under-employed man in the world.

Of course it had weaknesses, find me a tank that doesn't.

Besides the Russians lacked radio's for tactical control well into 1942.

MP38 I did mention the 38t but that Czech 47mm really needs it's Tungsten round to get the best out of it.

Jumbo

 

Answering a few points made above:

1. Pzkpw 35(t). Better than the larger PzKpw II, but that's all. Difficult to drive, outdated suspension, relatively slow. Thin armour. Short-barrel 37mm gun - excellent weapon for the size of this little light tank, but still a small gun. Only 3 man crew. Not the best in 1939 by a long way.

2. Pzkpw 38(t). Better than the 35(t). 4 man crew. Excellent chassis, fast and reliable. But still only 37mm gun (NOT 47mm - that was first installed on the PzJgr I tank-destroyer) although this was a long barrel version better that that of the PzKpw 35(t).

3. PzKpw III. Excellent tank, but in 1939, only equipped with 37mm gun which was almost as good as that of the PzKpw 38(t). Hitler had recommended a 50mm gun for this tank in 1935, but the Technical Office of the German Army went for the 37mm because it was already in production as an anti-tank gun at that time, while making the turret large enough to upgrade to the 50mm later. This was a poor decision - what they should have done was standardise on the 50mm for both tank and anti-tank guns back in 1935.

So the Pzkpw III, and the Wehrmacht anti-tank gun units, went to war with an inadequate gun that was less effective than the British 40mm 2 pounder and the French and Russian 45mm guns, and couldn't penetrate the frontal armour of either the Matilda or the Char B. And they were stuck with that gun until early 1941.

Hitler was right and the technical experts wrong. Had the 50mm version of Pzkpw III been available in 1939, even the short-barrel 50mm, that would have made the early PzKpw III as good as the early Pzkpw IV.

So none of the above three tanks qualify as the best tank of 1939 in my view.

[ 10 October 2002, 08:58 AM: Message edited by: vonManstein39 ]

 

Jumbo, I've read the same thing about the S-35... apparently there were not enough radios available at the time, so only a few of the S-35s had one.
I think the main problem with the S-35 was turret design... since the turret was not designed right off to accomodate another person, it made it nearly impossible to modify. Enlarging the turret ring would have required fully re-doing the whole hull.

And I did some more checking- the first T-34s rolled off the line in 1939. So I'm with dasriech on this one. Choose the best tank from 1939- but we can't make the obvious choice? We are excluding the russians- because they made clearly the best tank?!?!
Just seems kind of odd to me!

Maybe we should go by Theater of Operation...
The Best tank from the French campaign?
The best tank from North Africa?
Best tank from the Poland... ooops, guess that one dosen't really work!!!