Best Tank (1939-1940)?

I just love the Russian way of building big. Just like De Niro in " Taxi Driver ": " Are you talking to me? ...."

Ok, lets move to the really heavy tank section in 1939. Here we go:
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http://www.nemo.nu/ibisportal/5pansar/5sidor/5bilder/smkritn.jpg

http://www.aviapress.com/viewonekit.htm?FRI-005

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Just pick any, T-35, T-100 or SMK...

Info on its battle was not great during the Winter War:

In the mid 1930's the multi-turreted T-35 heavy tank entered service with the RKKA (Red Army). It was developed in the Design Bureau (later Zavod #185) of the Leningrad's "Bolshevik" plant in 1932. In 1933, all blueprints was transferred to the Kharkov Locomotive Works (ChPZ) named after Komintern and the improved T-35A was manufactured here.The T-35 was to be manufactured until an even more powerful super-heavy tank was developed. A super-heavy T-39 tank was designed in 1932-34, but none of them was approved. In July 1932, a government decision was taken that recommended the designers at ChPZ to design a new variant of a T-35 with improved (uparmored, upgunned) hull and turrets. Because of a delay at ChPZ, designers from Leningrad's Kirow Plant (LKZ) and Zavod #185 were called in to design own variants. A team at Zavod #185 led by N. Barykov designed a T-100 (Izdieliyc 100). The Leningrad's Locomotive Works (LKZ) team was led by Colonel Z. Kotin , and it developed the SMK heavy tank. It was a three-turret tank with a 76.2mm gun fitted in the main turret and two 45mm guns in the smaller turrets. Maximum armor protection was 60mm and it was to protect the machine from 76mm gun projectiles. Several T-35 components were used, and completion of the first prototype was scheduled for May 1st 1939. A 1:1 scale wooden mock-up of the SMK was presented to a special commision on October 11th 1938, and on December 9th 1938, the first finished prototype was demonstrated at the Kremlin. Stalin reportedly personally removed one of the smaller turrets and recommended an increase in armor thickness. Since January 1939 construction of the first double-turreted SMK prototype began. On 30th April 1939, a nearly finished prototype rolled out from the assembly building for the first time. The prototype was sent to Kubinka Proving Grounds on 25th of July, and trials began in the night of July 31st and 1st of August. On the 20th of September that SMK prototype was presented to representatives of the Communist Party, Defence Commisariat and other industry agents.

In December 1939 it was decided to send the SMK to continue its trials under real combat conditions. The crew partially consisted of LKZ workers and partially of army tankists, the SMK under command of Senior Lieutenant N. Pietin was sent by rail to Karelian Pass. Here, the SMK linked up with experimental tanks T-100 and KW, and joined the special super heavy tank company under command of Captain I.L Lolotushkin of the 91st Tank Battalion in the 20th Armored Brigade. The tank saw combat for the first time on December 17th 1939 in the area of Hottinen. On 19th of December it took part in an attack on Finnish fortifications near Summa and was immobilized and the crew was evacuated by the T-100 heavy tank.
The SMK remained in this position for more than two and a half months. The Finns made several attempts to tow away this unknown tank, however they didn't possess any equipment powerful enough for its purpose and in addition Soviet artillery was shelling the area heavily to prevent access to the abandoned SMK. Many stories about the Finnish attempts to examine the SMK in detail were later reported in the USSR (for example that on a mysterious disappearance of the driver's hatch), but no stories have been found in Finland. German intelligence quickly found out the appearance of this new "100 ton tank", but it was pretty overlooked. In German tank recognition directorates the SMK tank were named PzKpfw. Mark T-35C 752(r). In February 1940 Soviets gained access to the SMK, and on February 26th the SMK was inspected by a representative of the ABTU (Armored Forces Directorate) who found a damaged bottom and a lack of external equipment. In March 1940, six (!) T-28 tanks connected to eachother could tow the SMK to the Perkijärvi rail station. The SMK were here stripped and were sent back to LKZ by rail. After this, ideas were abandoned to construct super-heavy tanks, and such was the end of one of the "Leningrad-monsters".

http://www.skalman.nu/soviet/ww2-equipment-tank-smk.htm
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The pic of SMK in Finland at the bottom of the next site:

http://users.swing.be/tanks/engins2/145.html

SMK is a great tank unless it gets stuck...

 

CrazyD88,

You are almost, but not quite, correct that the first T-34s were produced in 1939. The tank you are thinking of is the A-32 (later named T-32).

Note: This is a little confusing as there was an earlier T-32, which was a multi-turreted medium.

The A-32 (T-32) was an experimental tank, of which there were only about three prototypes. These were sent to Finland to be tested in the Winter War in March 1940, but never saw action as the war ended just at that time. The T-32 is almost the same as the T-34, but with lighter armour and a shorter 76mm gun. This tank was further developed to become the first T-34.

But for the true T-34s, all the sources I can find say, first 3 series production tanks rolled of the line in September 1940.

See:

A-32(T-32) Medium Tank

T-34 Tank

Development History of T-34/76

Medium T-34 Tanks

[ 10 October 2002, 05:33 PM: Message edited by: vonManstein39 ]

 

Very nice thread, indeed!

And I would agree with many of the present men here: the Russians had the best tanks in the world in 1939 and certainly, I have to accept it, during the whole bloody war! But they don't count now...

So, I would go for the French monster Char-B, which my grandfather describes pretty well. He said that the bloody thing could not be pierced by anything, except for an 88... But it was a very heavy and awkward tank, because of the crew of one man... And the ventilation device was very weak and it could be pierced. However, if they would have been better used they would have kicked some asses in 1940. The "Soumuas" were excellent too, more balanced tanks than the Char-Bs. The Matilda had a poor gun and speed, but its armour helped a lot indeed. And I think that technically speaking, the tanks with more technology and more reliable were the Panzers Mark III and IV, because they were fast, reliable, perfectly balanced, had excellent comunication devices, etc. The Panzer 38(t) was very though and reliable but had no AT capability. Well, any tank had an AT capability in those times and it remained that way for a long time. In Africa, the Matildas and Panzers just couldn't pierce each other during 1941... remember that tanks-tactics didn't include tank-versus-tank fights...

Well, just my two cents.

I forgot: the Panzer 35(t) was not very good and I agree with PzJgr in the early StuGs...

 

Actually, vonManstein, the first T-34s were in fact around in 1939, they just were not in series production yet. The prototypes were around before december 1939... and the thread did not right off say that the tanks had to be production models...

That's from on of those sites you posted...

[ 14 October 2002, 09:52 AM: Message edited by: CrazyD88 ]

 

Sorry, CrazyD88, have to correct you again...

1st prototype T-34 (called A-34 at that time) was NOT complete on 31 December 1939.

Quote: "On 19th of December the drawings and models of the new T-34 were submitted to the High Command who accepted them for production, even before the prototype had been completed. "

From: Tank T-34

Quote: "The production of the first A-34 was completed in January 1940, that of the second one - in February."

From: Prototypes of the T-34-76

So, the best tank of 1939 was actually the prototype KV-1! See: KV-1 Still, if you are going to be sent into battle in a tank in 1939, chances are it's not going to be a prototype.

That's from on of those sites you posted...</font>[/QUOTE]

 

Crazy,

I said from the begining of the war! (Sept. 1,1939). Do you want the exact hour and minutes as well?! The Russians were not in the war then, and they didn't have the T34 then either! So make your choice! Why is this so hard?

What tank would you be in?

So far nobody picked a Japanese tank, Italian tank, or Polish tank.

Matt

 

George Forty in Tanks of WWII states very clearly that the first prototypes were available in late 1939, they were just not yet OFFICIALLY designated the T-34. This was common in Russian ww2 manufacturing- something would be produced in a variety of models and it would only be finalised for full production once the best model had been selected. So again, if "I'm going into battle in a tank in 1939", it would be a prototypoe T-34.

Actually, mp38...

That is what you said.
No production, nothing about prototype or not... You should have just stated that russian tanks could not be chosen.
Polish tanks, Italian tanks, Japanese tanks- why would anyone choose any of these? The polish didn't have anything the least bit worthwhile, Everything the Italians had was sub par, and the Japanese were in the same boat.

Like most people said- T-34, or Matilda.

 

Italian, Japanesse, Polish tanks?!!! I think a sardines can is far more worth it than them...

 

Sure Crazy you can pick the T34, but Russia was not in the war in 1939, so you would not be going into battle with it! That is my whole point!

The Polish tanks were actually pretty tough, about the same as the French tanks I would say. However, just like the French the Poles did not use them properly. Also thier number of tanks available was insufficient.

Also the Japanese tanks pretty much swept everything before them in 1939. Just look what they were going up against..... well nothing really except infantry, and a few guns.

Matt

[ 18 October 2002, 09:34 AM: Message edited by: mp38 ]

 

Allrighty... If it's only antions that were fighting, then definetley the Matilda...

Ummm, what Polish tanks? From everything I've read, the Poles only had a few "tankettes", tiny little 2-man buggies that mounted a machinegun. Besides that, in 1939 the only thing the Poles had were some French Renault R-35 tanks. What polish tanks are you referring to?

[ 18 October 2002, 09:41 AM: Message edited by: CrazyD88 ]

 

Crazy

I didn't know that the Poles fielded the R-35.

The little cavalry tankettes, even to one with the 15mm autocannon were still pretty feeble. Their only "proper" tank was the 7TP, based on that old warhorse the Vickers 6-Tonner. Fair enough agains the mass of Pz1's fielded by the Germans, but far too few and doctrinally challenged. They did have a prototype medium, the 10TP, but it was nowhere near ready in 1939.

Jumbo

 

Jumbo, http://wio.boom.ru/tank/poland.htm
There's where I found the R-35 reference.
The 7TP was an indigenous Polish tank, but there were very few of them.
And I haven't read anything about their action history, but I can't imagine them being especially successful. And as far as durability goes, with no more than 17mm of armor I can't imagine polish tanks being "tough"...

 

The Polish TK3 and TKS 2-man tankettes were slaughtered in 1939 by Pzkpw II's with 20mm guns and 37mm anti-tank guns. A few TKS's had 20mm guns themselves, but this wasn't enough to take on the Pzkpw II.

The 7TP's did much better, having a 37mm gun able to penetrate the German tanks at short range. They did well in two actions, in a Polish counterattack in the Battle of the Bzura and in the first Panzer attack on Warsaw, which were unexpected temporary setbacks for the Germans. But the 7TP's thin armour was no match for the Pzkpw 38t, III and IV.

The Poles had about 50 French R-35s which were tougher than the 7TP's to knock out.

The Italian tanks of 1939 were little better than Poland's. The L3 tankette had twin Breda MG's and was a deathtrap if confronted by any enemy tank or AT gun. The M11 so-called medium had a 37mm built into the front hull, and a little turret mounting an MG. It was slow and thinly armoured, less effective than even the British Cruiser Mk I.

The Japanese tanks saw action against the Red Army during May-August 1939, when Japan tried to take a slice of Soviet territory in Mongolia. The Russian T-26's and BT-5's, lightly armoured as they were, still had 45mm guns, and totally outgunned Japan's archiac tank designs. The Japanese had only small 2-man tankettes (Types 92, 94, 95 & 97 and an ancient medium dating from 1929, the Type 89A. The tankettes had either a machine gun or s 37mm gun. The medium had a low-velocity 57mm gun. All had very thin armour.

The Japanese tanks fought bravely but didn't stand a chance.

The Italian and Japanese tanks performed best against the Ethiopians and Chinese, who didn't have any tanks of their own, and very few AT guns either.

 

The Polish 7TPs were the tanks I was referring to Crazy. However, as I stated previously they didn't use the properly, and had far too few to stop the panzers! However, they were superior to the Pzkw Is and IIs that the Germans used.

If you talked to a vet of the Polish campain you would find out about them!

Matt

[ 19 October 2002, 07:40 PM: Message edited by: mp38 ]

 

The Polish tanks were very bad, very few and very bad used. So, did they have a chance? I don't think so.

The Japanesse didn't need a tank back there in the 1930s. They had plans for amphibious warfare in the isles where tanks are not very necessary.