Panthers with 88s?

Recently reading Stephen Ambrose 'Citizen Soldiers' I discovered referances to Panthers being equiped with 88mm cannon. My other referances do not mention Panthers using 88s at all. Where there in fact Pathers using 88s and if so, how many and where were they used most?

 

About 99.9% sure that there were NEVER any Panthers equipped with an 88mm cannon. Obviously, I can't speak for all the sources available, but I've never read about it...

There was a project- an attempt by Krupp to arm the Panther tank with an 88mm cannon- but as far as I know there were never any prototypes produced.

Certainly, any of the Panthers faced by the American soldiers Ambrose writes about (correct? Haven't read that book!) would not have been equipped with an 88.

 

An article from the January 1945 issue of the Intelligence Bulletin on the new Model 43 German 88-mm and armored vehicles using the gun including the JagdPanther and King Tiger. The most successful conversion based on Panther's chassis was Jagdpanther, an excellent tank destroyer armed with 88mm Pak 43 L/71 gun but its production was limited. Check out these sites
http://www.lonesentry.com/new88mm/
http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/Quarters/8662/jagdp.htm

 

guys, the Panther was armed with the long rod 7.5cm L70. kwk 40 and only the Jagdpanther variant carried the 8.8cm

~E

 

Here´s something on Panther II :

It was planned to arm Panther II with the lattest 75mm KwK 42 L/100 or even 88mm KwK 43 L/71 (without muzzle break) gun mounted in newly designed narrow turret - Schmalturm (designed by Rheinmetall in 1944 and to be produced by Daimler-Benz).

http://www.achtungpanzer.com/panth2.htm

 

While there was a design study done to arm the Panther II with an 88/71 it was deemed highly undesirable to do so. The gun could only be loaded at high angles of elevation, the recoil was calculated such that the recoil system size would restrict the range of elevation / depression severly. In short, it was too much gun for the tank.
My suspicion is that Ambrose was repeating veteran's claims. In some US units, particularly those with limited combat time and non-armored units like infantry every German tank had an "88" and every gun that fired on them was likewise. More seasoned units could and did tell the difference.

 

That's right--the only operational Panther chassis armed with an 88mm gun was the Jagdpanther. None of the various proposals for upgunning the Panther with the 88mm L/71 gun ever saw the light of day except possibly as mock-ups.

In The Beast Regiment (also entitled Monte Cassino), Sven Hassel makes the same mistake of claiming that Panthers had 88s.

Yours,
Paul

 

Well, I think that this discussion is rather pointless... Who are we taking this info about 88 in Panthers? Ambrose and Hassel...

They both have much credibility around here, don't they?

 

I think Glantz copied the mistake, too.

Cheers,

 

Actually, Friedrich, part of the fun with discussion groups like this one is watching the topics go off on odd tangents.

Yours,
Paul

 

Recently reading unedited 101st veterans accounts of Bastogne and struck by how every German tank was a Panther, every Panther had an 88, and every Panther was a Tiger....Again, at Arnhem, to British veterans every Stug was a Tiger and so on ! It seems the poor old Pzkw IV didn't do any fighting at all

One absolutely cannot blame the veterans : when you're staring down the muzzle of a big gun from your foxhole or slit trench who gives a **** what type of tank it is ! But one can blame historians who should know a little better....

 

i read somewhere, and heard from an armor LOVING friend of mine that SOME but VEERRRY FEW were equipped with 88mm's but i haven't confirmed it, if someone could that would be great, i'll keep on searching

 

Your friend was wrong. No turreted Panthers were armed with an 88/71. There was only a design study done and the results were rejected for production.

 

odd i've never seen him to be wrong before, oh well first time for everything but all the same the muzzle velocity on the 75mm was awesome!

[ 18. December 2003, 05:58 PM: Message edited by: 5-0-duce ]

 

That it was, Duce; I prefer the "long 75" to the "long 88" myself. But the fact is, the only version of the Panther to pack an 88mm gun in WWII was the limited-traverse Jagdpanther.

Yours,
Paul

 

The Russians called almost every tank "Tiger" and every assault gun "Ferdinand". Here:

"Enemy introduced new tank !
Shape roughly similar to 'Tridsatchedverka' (T-34).
Tank is heavily armored, weight is est. 40-50 tons.
Armament is probably 88mm AA gun.
We had losses at combat ranges beyond 2,000m..."

-Soviet radio message from July 8th of 1943.

Krupp started two projects to arm Panther with 88mm gun but neither was adopted. There were probably study models, prototypes and test vehicles armed with 88mm that may have at some point been forced into action in desperation.. but the 75mm L/70 was better anyway.

 

No Panthers were actually produced, using the 8.8cm. Kw.K. 43 L/71 (there were Jagdpanthers, of course).

I don't see how the 7.5cm. Kw.K. 42 L/70 should be better than the 8.8cm. Kw.K. 43 L/71...

 

We had quite a lengthy discussion here about the L/70 and 88 ; see : -
http://ww2f.com/showthread.php?t=12196

 

here's a quicker way to explain:

The Tiger had the L/56 not the L/71 8.8cm. The 75mm L/71 is better than the 8.8cm L/56, but the 8.8cm L/71 is better than the 75mm L/71.. confusing.

 

It certainly is.

Was there ever a 7.5cm 71 calibre length tank weapon ?