The story of a Russian bomber

As you know Russia has a one problem with the history of the war. On our territory there are many unknown and unidentified graves and places of crashed of tanks, aircraft and death of their crews. But their investigations are mainly engaged in only amateurs and enthusiasts. Unfortunately, the Government pays it little attention and resources. Last year I learned about a place where there is a heavy bomber DB-3F crashed. It lies in the forest, marshland, 200 km from Moscow. The person, who told me about this bomber, was unable to investigate the fate of the crew (how many people jumped with a parachute, how many died.) I'm now running this investigation, and gathered enough information about fighting ofthese bombers. There are many interesting facts, I will tell you about them in this thread. I found a list of military units, from where this plane could be. Next week I'm going to visit the Archives of the Ministry of Defense in Podolsk, where I would examine the original documents. I really hope I'm lucky and I can set the names of pilots. Now I need help. I would like to make a range of search smaller. To do this I need the dates about air victories of German pilots (with descriptionof the place of the downed planes).
While I found only one such site: http://don-caldwell.we.bs/claims/tonywood.htm
But it is not all downed aircrafts have a description of the place.
If you know of another link - please share. Interested in data for 1941. Most important is indication of the date and location where the plane was shot down.

 

Betting there is a good story in there. Has anyone found the downed DB3F you refer to, or are you saying you're going to go search for the crashed DB 3F?

 

Mate good on you for doing this...

 

Wishing you luck with your quest. I hope you'll find testimonies, relics and relatives who could show you pictures of the lost men.

 

Location of the crash is known. I was there in November 2011. It was frosty and we were able to approach the pit. Not far from this place there is a village. Older people know about the bomber from their parents. There is a very old woman who worked as a country doctor. She has assisted one of the pilots, who jumped with a parachute. She does not remember the details, but in general local people tell the following.
In October 1941, the villagers saw that the large military aircraft smoked heavily and coming down. Two (some say three) pilots jumper from it. The last parachutist jumping from a low height. Therefore, he got injured. Aircraft flew farther and fell. The wounded pilot said that the plane still had the crew members. Then the war machine came and took fliers. It was close to the front line, but on the Germans unoccupied territory: 200km from Moscow to the south-east, Ryazan region. The plane crashed in a swampy area, but his back was seen some time. As I understand, the locals collected all the parts that might get it. They made pots and cigarette-boxes from this metal. It is normal for a poor village, and even more so for the war - time.
In 1989 searches has worked on this site. They were able to get parts from the engine and many other small parts. But they could not reach the cabin. After that there was nothing done. Only one local man sign this place (put the cross).
I found the museum, which got parts of the aircraft. The first success - there was a number of the engine. The museum's director wrote a letter to the Central Archives of the Ministry of Defense to help determine the number of aircraft and its fate.
Here I ought to digress and explain why it is so difficult to work with archives in Russia and why it is so difficult to obtain information about the war - time.
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IRu, I am happy to hear of your efforts to bring forth this story of a bomber and its crew.....as well as the details of this event. For those who read about you I am especially appreciative of anyone in Russia taking on such a difficult task. Unless one has visited the areas around Moscow and the rural locations they do not have an awareness of how much more difficult travel is there to move about to put together such a story. IRu may need many permissions to travel to the many places and meet the many people that are involved in this effort. The studies in the archives will be another challenge in this quest. Hopefully the forum will be with you in verifying that this is a very legitimate historic project for any who may have doubts about your efforts. You can refer to us as just one of possibly many historic interests for your project.

 

have you tried here ?

Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum - Powered by vBulletin

many knowledgeable people there with Luftwaffe information.

 

Thank you all for your interest and support. I will definitely keep everyone informed.
Some more photo from this place. Sorry, there was so darkness, I am not professional photographer ))) ..
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Specifics of work in archives in Russia
Problem number one. Military records of one type can be stored in different archives. These archives (as an organization) may be subject to different departments and they have different laws and regulations to work with documents. For example, there are a few of state archives and several departmental archives. The main part of military documents is stored in the Central Archives of the Ministry of Defense (the departmental archives) and in the Russian State Archive of socio - political history. However, may be situation, when the required documents cannot be found, because you do not have the information - in which archive they are.
Problem number two. Government on the one hand does not supported the archives (with money and other means), on the other hand Government forbids them to do business. As a result, the archives are in poor condition. There is no automated system for searching. There are no computers. Employees receive a small salary, and because of it not working very well. If you send a request to the archive by mail, you will wait for a response for several months, especially if you are not a member of an important organization. Researchers taking up the original documents (because there is no quality xerox or photocopies). The researchers are different, so sometimes the documents are damaged.
Problem number three. Secrecy. During the Soviet era archives were entitled to operate only specially-trained historians. Therefore, we have received distorted information. After PERESTROIKA began, access to archives has become more easy. But another problem occurred. All the good things of the country were mentioned less often, and all the bad things in our country have been widely discussed and replicated in large quantities. Now the Government pays a lot of effort that would restore public pride in the country, we have lost in the 90s (I mean - pride, not country). I would not like to talk - rightly or wrongly, but now the situation is this: on the one hand there is a law in Russia, according to which all documents older than 30 years should be declassified. On the other hand, there is another law that is not all documents are subject to declassification. It is very opaque and as a result the researcher cannot get the necessary document because it is considered confidential. I think it's because the amount of very large files (only CAMD stored more than 18 million documents), and sort them into "useful" and "bad" is very difficult (because p.2). Therefore, the archives still have a very large number of secret documents. Easier to prevent than to allow all.
Nevertheless, I hope I can finish this important matter. To be continued....
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Many thanks for continuing this thread, IRu....I'm following it with great interest !

 

HA. I like how IRu managed to slip in his hot rod Nissan into the pics. Left hand drive? Research is much easier when driving in class. lol.

 

So, we had part of the engine on which it was pointed: type - M-88 and the number - 88 1222, built date - 05/04/41. I learned that the engine of this type is reworked version of the M-87. These engines were installed on aircraft such as the DB-3. This aircraft started to be developed in 1934 - 1935 year. The demand for designers has been fantastic.They had to make a bomber flying with speed as a fighter. And in 1936 it passed its first test. It could fly at an altitude of 9 km in length 3800km and it was intended for long-range bombers. But, of course, it had many defects.
We have to remember that, at first, the Soviet Union lived in isolation at that time. It was quite difficult to get access to new technologies from abroad. In addition, the stratum of educated people of imperial times decreased significantly (many emigrated or were repressed). New, talented engineers were scarce. Nevertheless, Russia has developed and produced many different types of weapons.
I remember a conversation that was read in the memoirs of an engineer - designer Yakovlev. Stalin asked how long we should expect a new version of a military aircraft? Yakovlev said - after 2 years. Stalin said that it is very long and the plane needed after 1 year. Yakovlev said that 2 years - it's fast. American engineers are spending on the development of 3 years. Stalin responded to the threat: Why you is (targeting) on the U.S. engineers? You are a Soviet citizen, then you have to make it faster, that is for 1 year.
DB-3 aircraft was made also in a rush (engineer - designer Ilyshin). By the way, in 1942 it was renamed - IL-4. Therefore, DB-3 and IL-4 in my post - it's the same plane.
DB-3 was intended for the destruction of industrial and military targets deep in the depths of enemy territory. It was assumed that the bombing will be carried out at high altitudes, unattainable for the fighters. It is very important, because later I'll tell you how it is used in reality. DB-3 had a few modifications. It could be used in the Navy, the installer min and as aircraft, attacking torpedoes. It could be used as transport aircraft and reconnaissance aircraft.
Stalin gave much attention to the development of aviation. But, in my opinion, the long-range aviation was not his main purpose. On June 22, 1941 all long-range aviation of the Red Army was collected in 5 corps. These 5 corps were subordinated to Cheif of Red Army. 4 corps were in the European part and one was located in the Far East (in case of war with Japan). At that time there were about 2,000 long-distant bombers in the long-range aviation. DB-3 was the primary - about 85% of total long-range bombers. In addition to them were such a rare aircraft as TB-3, Ep-2 and TB-7. Their photo I posted below.
As I said above, DB-3 was carried out in a hurry. It went into production without completing the state tests. When I read the correspondence of design engineers with the military, I began to understand that situation: everyone knew that war was inevitable and they must hurry.
DB-3 had no autopilot. Crew of 3 (4) man (pilot, navigator, and 1 (2) shooter). In anys case the flight can continue 12 hours. This means that all 12 hours, under conditions of oxygen starvation pilot was unable to release the wheel from his hands. All the time he ran a plane by hands. I read in his memoirs that the pilots were in front of ammonia and often smelled it, that would not lose consciousness. Protection of the crew was weak. In order to have the aircraft was lighter to not put him protection from bullets. During the war, due to the lack of metal, many parts were made from wood. In the memoirs of a pilot, I read that gun control was uncomfortable for him and they tying a rope (cable) and ran a machine gun through it).
In 1941 DB-3 were assembled at three plants: in Moscow (at the automobile plant!!), Voronezh (the central part of the country, avia plant) and on the Far East (9000 kilometers from Moscow!!) in Komsomolsk-on-Amur. By the way, the plant in Komsomolsk was equipped with equipment purchased in the U.S.
To be continued ....
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The answer from the Archive came rather quickly (after only 2 months). The second success: the response contains information that the aircraft with engines 88 1222 and 88 1346 was assembled at a military factory at Komsomolsk-on-Amur. July 4, 1941 it was handed to the representative of the military unit. The most important thing - there was the type of aircraft - DB-3F and its number - 5605!
In addition, there was pointed out that in the audited documents of military units for long-range aviation in 1941 there is no information about arrivals and losses of aircraft with this number. This post has put me in doubt. On one forum I read that this Archive gets 20-30 thousand requests a year. And just a few women, with no computers, responding to requests. Therefore, further research should be done yourself.
And I started. First we had to find a military unit, where the aircraft was in September - October, 1941. Then we need to see reports of military casualties over this part of October 1941. Among these losses should be this crew. Moreover, not all the crew died. If only two pilots jumped out of plane, and parachutist, who hurt himself in the fall, did not survive, then at least one person had to stay alive.
It is obvious that would be to find a military unit, it is necessary to trace the path of the aircraft from the plant. In other words, to trace the path of a military unit, which received the aircraft from the plant.
A small digression about the identification of units in the Red Army. Maybe all know about that, but I will write just in case. Each military part has a name consisting of numbers and words. In other words, it is called - a real (or private) name. For example: 3rd Squadron, 749 th Aviation Regiment, 42th Air Division. In addition, the military part from regiment and more had a conditional (open) name. This included five-digit number. For example, в/ч 12345. May be will be right to call it - military unit. There is one rule: the open name has only units which have the battle-flag. That is, these units can operate separately. They had their headquarters and providing services. Losing the battle flag was the greatest disgrace for this military unit. During the war, if the unit has lost his battle standard (for example, HQ was taken prisoner), it disbanded (disassembled) and its number is no using more. If all perished, but the flag was, this unit was recruited new members and it acted on with the same number. Also, during the war, each military unit had a number of Field-mail address: п/п 2334. This number is used for sending and receiving messages. As a rule, all military documents consist only private, real name of units.
The number of unit, which received the aircraft from the plant, was four-digital. This number is assigned to military units for the period of their formation. I found information in Internet, that this unit belonged to 303rd Bomber Regiment, which was part of the 53rd Air Division of the 5th Air Corps. This Corps was in the same part of the Russia where the plant was (the Khabarovsk and Primorye areas). After the war with Germany began, this area began to be called the Far Eastern Front, despite the fact that the fighting was not here before 1945.
I would like to explain where I took the information before the moment when I realized that without a visit to an archive I cannot do. The fact is that, despite the difficulties, Russia has a lot of people (professional and not only) who study military history. Some of them are studying fighting the Red Army (http://www.bdsa.ru). Other working to find missing soldiers in the wars (http://www.soldat.ru). There are people who deeply study the armor or mechanized corps (http://mechcorps.rkka.ru/). They work for a long time in the archives or memoirs, and then systematize and spread information on the Internet. And I want to tell them thank you very much! With regard to aviation, a lot of information I learned from this site: http://allaces.ru/ A very large collection of war memoirs collected at http://militera.lib.ru/
So, in July 1941, this aircraft was in the 303rd Bomber Aviation Regiment in the Far East. To be continued...

 

Thanks IRu, some interesting information on a subject that was obscure to me before! Keep it coming!

 

Excellent work Sergey!

 

Thank You for posting the fourth image on Jan 19.
that is one I had not seen before.
2 of the ones posted today were new for me as well.

 

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So I started looking for information about the 303rd Aviation Regiment. I was helped the Russian-language forum ÂÈÔ2 NE There are dates that in July - August 1941 from the six air regiments (10, 14, 49, 56, 139, 303) were formed eight other aviation regiments. They had the numbers 442, 443, 444, 445, 454, 455, 456, 457. It was common practice at that time: make units smaller, but increase their quantity (as far as I know, Hitler did the same). The plane, which I'm looking for, could get into any of these regiments. I began to collect information about those regiments. It took time, but as a result, I found that:
- regiments with numbers: 442, 443, 444, 445, were armed with the DB-3, but before 1945 they were in the Far East and did not participate in the war against the Wehrmacht;
- regiments 454, 456, 457, had no planes at first, and only at the end of 1942 they had adopted the A-20B aircraft (American bomber Douglas).
That is, only one regiment (the number 455) had an aircraft in service with the DB-3 and was not in the Far East in the autumn of 1941.
In September 1941, this Regiment was in the Moscow suburbs. But in the description of its history was said that it arrived in Moscow not from the Far East. It arrived from the Caucasus region. I started checking and found some interesting information, about which I did not know before. Now I want to tell you. Indeed, this Regiment, in August 1941 was in the Caucasus. What it did there, when all efforts were needed on the Eastern Front? It turns out that at the time when the Germans occupied Smolensk, has almost destroyed the regular Red Army and had planned a decisive attack on Moscow, at the time when a lot of equipment has already been broken and lost, the Soviet Union with the United Kingdom, prepared and carried out the invasion of Iran. It was done that make it impossible for Hitler took Iran too. On the Russian side of the operation was attended by five Field Armies, and many other military units, including a 26th Long-range Aviation Brigade. It was included 455 Aviation Regiment. There is very little information about fighting the Red Army in Iran, in August - September 1941. The Iranians did not resist for a long time and they quickly surrendered. But Long-range Aviation of 26th Division took part in the hostilities, and even lost a plane.
September 8th fighting ended in Iran and the 26th Brigade was moved to the Moscow suburbs. They was divided on two divisions: the 26th and 133th.
That is, in theory, the plane with the number 5605 could be such a fate:
- in July 1941, assembled at the factory in the Far East,
- in August 1941 bombing of Iran,
- in September 1941 fighting in the Moscow suburbs,
- in October 1941 was hit.
To be continued...

 

Thank you PFlint
If you collecting photo of military plane I can recommend link AviaDejaVu
There are lot of it

 

Thanks , IRu !
there are a lot.

 

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So, I thought that was near the end of the search. But occasionally I read in some memoirs of a pilot following sentence:
"The war caught him in the Far East as a flight commander. June 23, 1941, his squadron was sent to the east to get and surpass to the west new DB-3F aircraft. But the non-flying weather and other circumstances delayed their flight. Only at the end of August 1941 squadron arrived in the current aviation unit"
I found similar information in other memoirs. That is: the plant in Komsomolsk gathering aircraft. These aircrafts were transferred to one of the regiments of 53rd Division of long-range aircraft. Then, on the basis of this Division, squadron formed and flew on the Eastern Front. And then this Division recruited and trained new pilots and waited new aircraft from the plant.
In other words, the plane with the number 5605 could fall into any of the units of long-range aviation, fought on the Eastern Front in the autumn of 1941.
I started to figure out how many such units were in the Red Army in September - October, 1941. It was found that a bit. By September 1941 all long-range bombers was reduced in six divisions: 22, 40, 42, 50, 51, 52. As a part of each division were two regiments on DB-3 and one regiment in the TB-3 aircraft. In addition, there were separate divisions with numbers 81 and 23. 81st Division had planes Ep-2, TB-7, DB-3. In August - September 1941, this Division was flying to bomb Berlin. Along the way, the aircraft landed to refuel on the island of Saaremaa in the Baltic Sea. Once this area was captured by the Germans, the bombing of Berlin had to stop. 23rd Division was part of the Western Front. The remaining divisions were under the General Command of the Red Army.
In addition to the long-range aircraft such divisions DB-3 were used in two reconnaissance regiments of the General Staff. 1st Reconnaissance Aviation Regiment was at the airfield near Ryazan, near the site of the crash bomber with number 5605.
22th and 50th Divisions operated on the Southern Front and the Crimea. I do them aside.
23rd Division had only TB-3. On September 30, in the 81st Division, DB-3 is also no longer exists.
In addition that, in September 1941 the 26th Division came from Iran. It was divided into two divisions: the 26th and 133rd.
So there are two ways:
1st way: To look for information about distribution of aircraft in military units. These information may be among documents of the General Command of Air Force. There should be indicated by numbers of planes. Then search for information about the fate of this plane inside the military unit.
2nd way: Look for information about the plane immediately inside each units. There are 7 units where it colld be:
- 1st Reconnaissance Aviation Regiment (2nd Regiment acted north of Moscow);
- 26, 133, 40, 42, 51, 52nd Air Divisions.
Tomorrow I will go to the Central Archives of the Ministry of Defence, and there'll decide which way I go.
To be continued ...