Hi all, I was wondering a whole bunch of stuff, so, here it is in no particular (aside from rambling and incoherent) order (I am still dealing with pain issues, though an operation solved some of them, hallelujah -- I bought the surgeon a bottle of 24 year old single malt, which should tell you how MUCH pain I was in): The USA had the OSS, right? The British had, what? MI6? Is that Military Intellgence? Ministry of Intelligence? Did the Russians have anything besides the KGB? GRU? NKVD? (which of those were extant in WWII and what do they stand for please?) Did any of the other combatants maintain a secret force? Have I missed any? Are there any books about OSS missions into Europe? Were they ever declassified? In general, how successful were they? Now for the one that might start a real discussion. In YOUR OPINION (be NICE, folks, please?!) which group was MOST successful? Why? I know, babble, babble, babble. Sorry. I am watching "Where Eagles Dare" and it got my brain percolating. Vielen Dank. Molto Grazi. Domo Arigato. Shokhran. Spaseba. Thank you.
I would sure like to see a dedicated Intelligence Forum here. There is one at our sister forum: Top Secret - World War 2 Talk - that might be a better place to ask. It is chock-a-block with British experts. Lots here as well, but this subject area is so disjointed here!
Thanks Fred! I'll head over there tomorrow when I am not so utterly knackered. Oh, one thing, Fred. Your dad was a navigator on Lancs and Wellies? My dad was a navigator on B-17s in the Eighth USAF. He went on to teach navigation, and was, after the war (because of his technical training) an official observer at a couple of concentration camps in Austria and Germany. That's why he became an MD. I just find it neat that both our dads were navigators in hell.
The Germans had the Brandenbergers and the Soviets started the precurser to Spetnatz. MI6 was the intelligence agency and was not just special missions.
Small, small world. My dad was an MD too. Pediatrician. Art Sovereign (Bud) (His memories included "bombing" food into the Netherlands.) Back on task, the British MI5 was the real meal deal in WW2. http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/worldwars/wwtwo/mi5_ww2_01.shtml "MI5's performance in running a stable of double agents during the Second World War is still regarded as a textbook example of how such operations should be conducted."
Most successful? Well probably the NKVD but in the West MI5 definitely. In 1940 Churchill promised to "set Europe ablaze" and proceeded to do just that Set Europe Ablaze .It helped tremendously that the NAZI occupation policies were draconian and served to stir large numbers of peoples in the occupied nations to action. JEFFinMNUSA
I hope this turns out to be a long, long thread. Excellent topic. But I must correct Jeff. SOE were formed from Section D of MI6, not MI5. Special Operations Executive - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Regards, Dave
Thanks Dave. Other than Ultra ( http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ww2peopleswar/stories/86/a8187186.shtml), British Intell's greatest success was how they thoroughly baffled German Intell as to Allied intentions. https://www.mi5.gov.uk/home/mi5-history/world-war-ii.html Then there were the series of brushfire wars SOE started up in Northern Italy, France, Poland and Yugoslavia. Us Yanks were latecomers to the great game and basically the OSS was formed from scratch; http://www.abebooks.com/OSS-World-II-Edward-Hymoff-New/1240604916/bd In all? I would have to call the Allied covert wars a success.
Alieneyes said, Thank you kindly! And just imagine, the idea for the topic came out of "Where Eagles Dare" (one of my FAVORITE WWII movies and novels). I also hope it goes on and on and, most importantly, remains civil and fun!
the OSS (Office of Special Services) became the CIA (Central Intelligence Agency) after the war ended. the NKVD (Narodny Kommisariat Vnutrennikh Del) People's commissariat for internal affairs was actually Stalin's secret police force and became the KGB after the war. (not sure what KGB stands for ,but it is like State Security Agency or some-such. I do not know when the GRU was formed (or it's long name) but it is basically a secret force inside the military to "keep an eye" from the inside. kind of like what Internal Affairs is to a Police Department-only secret.
Here's an MI6 book I should pick up some time; MI6: Inside the Covert World of Her Majesty's Secret Intelligence Service - Stephen Dorril - Google Books They do cover the bitter history of Poland and the doomed Armia Krajowa. Did Stalin really withhold aid from the AK fighters allowing the NAZIs to crush that nationalist movement? Absolutely he did! http://www.pbs.org/behindcloseddoors/episode-2/ep2_warsaw_resistance_fighters.html If Winston Churchill had hoped to present a Nationalist Polish force to the advancing Red Army he had not counted on Stalin's ruthlessness. The AK survivors were brutally suppressed by the NKVD; http://www.doomedsoldiers.com/armia-krajowa-in-NKVD-NKGB-documents-pt-1.html
Dorril's book on MI6 is exceptional. At almost 900 pages it can be a bit much given that most of pertains to post-WWII stuff. Great read though. The best book on the OSS, in my opinion, is Joseph Persico's "Piercing the Reich" which deals more with the operations than the Wild Bills of the world: The Imperial War Museum in London transcribed a series of interviews they did with SOE veterans. The result is a stunning set of stories: The Wildest Province - SOE in the Land of the Eagle" (SOE in Albania): The Wildest Province: SOE in the Land of the Eagle: Amazon.co.uk: Roderick Bailey: Books Forgotten Voices of the Secret War - An Inside Story of Special Operations During the Second World War Forgotten Voices of the Secret War: An Inside History of Special Operations in the Second World War: Amazon.co.uk: Roderick Bailey: Books Anyone else feel free to post other books, especially OSS. Regards, Dave
Not quite. The OSS was abolished in October 1945. In between January 1946 and the founding of the CIA in September 1947, the Truman administration set up the Central Intelligence Group with Rear Admiral Sidney W. Souers as its first director: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...1IGABQ&usg=AFQjCNEVhUHcnDJiBqy2PtUebUEpbHCGng Regards, Dave
One of the more successfull OSS/MI6 missions was the insertion of small SF teams into occupied France in preparation for Overlord; The Jedburghs: The Secret History of the Allied Special Forces, France 1944 - Will Irwin - Google Books How effective were the behind the lines warriors? Hitler thought enough of them to issue the infamous "Commando Order" in 1942. http://www.combinedops.com/Hitlers_Commando_Order.htm SOE and OSS in Italy; https://www.cia.gov/library/center-...cations/csi-studies/studies/spring98/OSS.html
The idea of a intelligence sub-forum has been around for awhile and may yet happen. Other matters have taken precedence sadly,but as they are resolved we may just see a sub-forum created.
URL could not be resolved. it also appears to be a PDF download-warn people about these first. much prefer TXT or HTML over PDF.
Could you be the one person left on the planet who doesn't run their cursor over a link first? Point taken though. We can trust the link: https://www.cia.gov/library/center-for-the-study-of-intelligence/kent-csi/vol39no5/pdf/v39i5a13p.pdf This is just part of the story of the CIG. The rest of the article is worth a read. Regards, Dave
The OSS's most valuable spy; A Generation Of Patriots - Spy Services & Espionage About whom the movie "The Counterfeit Traitor" was made in 1962; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_mwKm8tpz-M The OSS's greatest achievment? Probably the Italian Partisan movement. JeffinMNUSA
