Why were some petty officers referred to as Petty Officer Second Class/First Class rather than Machinist's Mate First Class or Gunner's Mate Second Class? Were there any Petty Officers in the Navy during ww2 who didn't have a job specialty so we're just called Petty Officers? Could a Seaman First Class be promoted to Petty Officer without a specialty? Would the ones with specialties be referred to as Petty Officer Smith for example rather then Gunner's Mate Smith? Also, we're some sailors considered a Fireman rather then a Seaman after boot camp? Like a Fireman Second Class, not a Seaman? What was it that fireman did? A lot of questions I know, but I appreciate any help. Sean
http://www.navy.mil/navydata/ranks/rates/rates2.html Why were some petty officers referred to as Petty Officer Second Class/First Class rather than Machinist's Mate First Class or Gunner's Mate Second Class? Petty Officer Second Class was just a means of denoting rank/pay grade. Gunner's Mate Second Class indicates rank paygrade and job. Were there any Petty Officers in the Navy during ww2 who didn't have a job specialty so we're just called Petty Officers? Not to my knowledge. Could a Seaman First Class be promoted to Petty Officer without a specialty? Would the ones with specialties be referred to as Petty Officer Smith for example rather then Gunner's Mate Smith? At least by current rules you have to have been in the navy for 18 months before making Seaman First Class. Unless your promoted early due to a more advanced job/training. It was war time so anything is possible but a sailor without a job/rating is effectively useless on board a modern ship. So I doubt it happened often. Also, we're some sailors considered a Fireman rather then a Seaman after boot camp? Like a Fireman Second Class, not a Seaman? What was it that fireman did? Fireman were originally called that because they dealt with coal burning steam engines. It grew to encompass all engineering/hull jobs. From working on engines to electricians. EDIT: In the same way a naval Airman has a job associated with aircraft.
“Petty Officer” is a generic term. No. There was no rating simply, “petty officer”. If you were a petty officer you were rated in a specialty, such as GM3c, or whatever. No, see above. Someone could certainly write or say he was a petty officer 2d class, okay, but then the obvious question from someone in the know would be “in what rating?” ALL petty officers were rated in a specialty. Again, the term “Petty Officer” is a generic term. One might use it when speaking to non-Navy types who might not understand the intricacies of the World War II era Seaman Branch, Artificer Branch and its sub-branch Artificer- Engine Room Force, Aviation Branch, Special Branch, Commissary Branch or Stewards Branch, some of which can get complicated. Suzie Snowflake back on the farm in northwest North Dakota: “What did you do in the Navy?” Answer: “I was a petty officer.” Doesn’t tell her much . . . but probably enough to serve the purpose. Grandpa Joe, who served on a four-stacker during The Great War: “What was your rating?” Answer: “I was a Machinist Mate 1st class” Tells Grandpa that you had advanced from boot camp through the non-rated ranks and into the exalted realm of the petty officer, just shy of CPO. A fireman works in the engine room. If one ends up in the Artificer Branch – Engine Room Force, where the rank/rating structure is slightly different, after boot camp one’s rating is Fireman 3d Class instead of Seaman 2d class. A particularly worthy individual MIGHT jump straight to Fireman 2d Class or even Fireman 1st Class, depending on civilian experience, how well one did in boot camp and results of classification tests. The first Petty Officer rating in this branch is Fireman 1st class which is the equivalent of the 3d class POs in the most of the other branches, wearing only one inverted chevron under his crow. 2d class POs in the Artificer – Engine Room Force starts the more specialized ratings . . . Machinist’s Mate, Motor Machinist Mate, Water Tender, Boilermaker, Metalsmith and Molder. These all start with the PO 2d class rating (two inverted chevrons below the crow). This structure goes way, way, way back to when the engine room folks, officers included, were considered specialists, in a non-line branch. Special Branch also has ratings other than Seaman 2c and Seaman1c for some of the specialties, but they are the equivalent. Strongly urge you to look at: http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USN/ref/Ranks&Rates/index.html
Ok so if someone were to call you by your name and title in the navy, a superior officer or a basic seaman,would they say "Petty Officer Smith" or "Machinist's mate Smith"? As far as there being no petty officer without a rating, that isn't true in today's navy right? Because Navy SEALS are called petty officers in front of their name.
The SEAL ratings currently are Special Warfare Operator(SO) and Special Warfare Boat Operator(SB). Prior to this 2006 change, upon completion of their BUD/S training, the seaman was required to switch over to one of the source ratings(gunner's mate, boatswain's mate, etc.).
The stumbling block here appears to be a combination of the vernacular versus actual titles, custom versus formality, oral versus written, tradition versus current usage, usage familiarity versus exposure issues. It is entirely normal to address a petty officer of any rating as just that, “petty officer” without any reference to 1st, 2nd or 3rd class or specialty rating; likewise one might address any seaman as “seaman” with reference to whatever class. On the other hand, one might just as easily address a gunner’s mate as “gunner’s mate”. By the same token one might address a chief petty officer as just that, though more likely just “chief” without dragging out “Chief Motor Machinist’s Mate” though there’s no rule against it. A master chief petty officer always, always, gets the master part and is addressed as “Master Chief”, though the Master Chief of the Navy is addressed as “Master Chief” in conversation and “Master Chief of the Navy” in correspondence, after all, there’s only one, but never forget that there is a specialty rating in there somewhere. The thing to remember is that when you hear or see someone referred to as “petty officer” is that there is always a specific rating behind that title, always. Same thing happens in the army, there are several grades of sergeant and most, most, are referred to as “sergeant” even though one might be something more than an E-5. First Sergeants, Sergeants Major and Command Sergeants Major are addressed by their ranks, but all the other sergeants, regardless of how many rockers might appear below their chevrons are just “sergeant.” Through the 1960s and 70s the army had some 6 or so “specialist” ranks, corresponding to hard stripe ranks, Spec 4 corresponded to corporal, Spec 5 to sergeant, Spec 6 to staff sergeant and so on . . . these guys in conversation were all called “Specialist”. In writing, they were” Specialist 5 Jones, I M” or “Specialist 4 Smith, B D”. And if one really wanted to get pedantic you might see, “Specialist 4th Class Smith, B D.” But in the everyday world, they were simply addressed “Specialist.” Similarly, a navy lieutenant commander (or, actually any rank) in command of smaller ship is referred to as “Captain;” he is not an O-6 type Captain, but he holds the title of captain of his ship and is addressed as such by both the men on his ship and by his seniors in the chain of command. BUT, on paper, in correspondence, he is a lieutenant commander. Junior officers, the Ensigns, the Lieutenants (jg), Lieutenants, and Lieutenant Commanders are addressed in conversation as “Mister” . . . does not mean they are civilians. The “Mister” is used in conversation by both superiors and juniors; a captain of the O-6 variety would address Ensign Smith as “Mister Smith” just as the lowest ranked enlisted man in Ensign Smith’s division would also address him as “Mister Smith.” Long, long ago, in the army lieutenants were also referred to in conversation as “Mister” . . . not anymore . . . and, in my lifetime, Marine lieutenants and captains were also “Mister,” . . . don’t know if they still do that. Lieutenant commanders are casually addressed as “Commander” just as lieutenant colonels can and are addressed as “colonel”. Official correspondence, though I am sure there would be an exception or two lurking about, generally uses the actual grade or rank of the individual. Thus when on reads, for example, an air medal citation for the rear seat gunner in an SBD, you would see him referred to, grabbing a rating out of thin air, ARM2c . . . a press release, on the other hand, for the same event might refer to him as “petty officer”. Service is full of little oddities on how they say and write things. If presented a list of naval personnel in say, a WWII after action report, officers are generally listed Rank (usually abbreviated) - First name - Middle Initial - Last name, followed by USN or USNR. Thus, “Ens. John M. Doe, USN” or “Lieut. James A. Dokes, USNR.” An enlisted man, though, would be listed as Last name - first and middle initials, rate, followed, sometime, but not always, by USN, thus, “Jones, H. P., ARM2c, USN.” Variations would be upper case for last names (Ens. John M. DOE, USN” or “Lieut. James A DOKES” or “JONES, H. P., ARM2c, USN.”); it all kind of depends how thorough and meticulous is one’s yeoman and what the commanding officer is willing to accept as appropriate. Also one sees gradual evolution on how things are abbreviated; classic case is the grade Lieutenant Commander . . . used to be “Lieut. Comdr.”, then “Lt. Comdr.”, then “Lt. Cdr.” and nowadays “LCDR” and whether or not one uses periods is/was problematical. Admirals and generals, regardless of the number of stars are addressed conversation as “admiral” or “general”. In formal writing the title is spelled out “Rear Admiral” or “Lieutenant General”. In historic writing, once someone has been presented as Vice Admiral Smith, further reference need only use “Admiral Smith” if rank is used at all, usually last names suffice. Same for the generals, Major General Jones, once mentioned in his full title is afterwards “General Jones” or just “Jones”. This applies to any rank, officer or enlisted, you only have to mention the actual full title the first time the person is presented, afterwards, and to loop back, the reference reverts to shorthand . . . Gunners Mate 3rd Class John B Strange becomes GM3c Strange or Petty Officer Strange or PO Strange or just plain stand alone Strange. Anyway, one simply has to be aware of the niceties when reading anything. How many times do you see someone referred to in a newspaper article as an “officer” and as you read you find you find out that the person is a non-commissioned officer but the typical journalist nowadays has not a clue. We had a gent here locally who really did a very brave thing in the events surrounding a shooting the other night . . . the TV newies called him a “retired Marine” but all you had to do was look at him (late 20’s early 30’s in age) and listen to what he said and realize he was a former marine who had probably a couple of enlistments behind him and was now a civilian. That’s not the definition of ‘retired” for military purposes. In fairness, the morning paper got it right, describing him as a former Marine. Parenthetically, the guy, unarmed, made a tough, courageous call that could have gotten him killed, but did it anyway in an attempt, sadly destined to fail, to save a two year old. Gets a hats off attaboy, too bad it didn’t work out. And, truth be known, when a senior (enlisted or officer) addresses an enlisted junior, face to face, one rarely mentions rank at all. A platoon leader of the second lieutenant variety (there’s another interesting evolution of titles and abbreviations to trace) might say to one of his men, “Jones, take Smith and Murphy and go see the first sergeant, he’s a task for you.” Their ranks never enter into the conversation.
