Barbarossa: why did it happen?

In a book, I recently ran across an argument that Hitler invaded the Soviet Union purely for lebensraum purposes, it having nothing to do with the outcome of the Battle of Britain. I have noticed that the standard doctrine in books and the classroom is that Hitler turned to the USSR after being frustrated by the BoB. Personally, the author persuaded me to his point of view, but then I pretty much felt that way anyway. What do you guys think? Was it lebensraum or the failed attempt on England?

 

Hitler's decision was led by a mix out of strategical thoughts (fighting England), "Lebensraum"-motives (his socialdarwinist, long term "programme") and Ideolocical reasons (his immanant Antisemitism, Racism and Antibolshevism).

Fact is that the War against Russia wasn't planned to be a "normal war", so singeling out only "normal" strategic thoughts is somewhat onedimensional.

It's very hard and you can argue formidable about singeling some of the reasons out or rank them. I think any of those reasons was a "used" by him to find people to support his idea.

Cheers,

 

Well, it wasn't just lebensraum, that initiated Barbarossa, it was indeed Uncle Adolfs hatred of the Bolshevics and all their associated doctrine.

Afterall, Germany had just given itself loads of lebesraum by invading, Poland, Czechoslovakia, and the rest of Europe. They really didn't need the Ukraine any other part of the Soviet Union, except perhaps oil from the Caucasus, and that they could have got by trade deals.

No, it was really motivated by a deep seated distrust and hatred of anything red.

Mind you, the distrust and hatred went both ways.

I have read that, both Stalin and Hitler signed the non-aggression pact for basically the same (hidden) reason. To give themselves time.

Hitler needed time, because he wasn't quite sure what the allies would do when he invaded Poland, and when they did nothing....well, we know what happened next.

Stalin needed time, because he had just finished purging the Soviet Army Officer Corps of most of it's experienced men. He needed time to train new officers and get his armies into some kind of working order.

I have read that Stalin and his advisors forsaw war with Germany (due to their inherent ideological differences) occuring sometime around 1942/43. so he signed the pact, to ensure he still had a couple of years to get ready. Incidently, Stalin was in fact seriously planning to attack Germany first, once his armies were up to scratch. That's how much he disliked the Germans.

Barbarossa was a pre-emptive strike by Germany.

Hitler knew that war was inevitable with Russia, and he knew that Stalin was playing for time.

Barbarossa was going to happen, no matter what the excuse.

Lebensraum was just one of the excuses that Hitler told his people.

 

Rubbish.

Please show me some evidence that Hitler's decission and the subsequent plans for "Barbarossa" (July 1940-Dec. 1940) were made under the influence by the thread of an Soviet attack on Germany.

With all due respect, I think that you have a conceptioal misunderstanding of what "pre-emptive" strikes means.

Even IF Stalin was about to attack Germany (no proof so far), and even if in 1941 (no proof so far neither), the German invasion would have been a factual preventive war at best, but not a "pre-emtive strike" carried by her own intetion and threats to become invaded.

I go to my neighbors door, ring twice, he opens, I shoot him into his face, enter his house, and find dozens of guns and some signs that he planned to do the same with me. Surprise, surprise AFTERWARDS, but is this "pre-emtive" murder or self-defense?

Please tell me the judge's name who will sent me free.

Cheers,

 

I have not read Mein Kampf but in many articles the idea of attacking Russia, and finding "lebensraum " and endless sources of supply is mentioned many times in that book.So already in the twenties he had his eyes toward east? I intend to read it this autumn, and many say it is very heavy reading, so we´ll see.it can be found in the net and printed.

 

AndyW

Heinz Magenheimer (Hitler's War 1998) does indeed make the case for the German attack being a pre-emptive strike in 1941. By a variety of Russian sources recently unearthed he has discovered Soviet Offensive plans for September 1941. He also asks a pertinent question: If, according to Soviet sources, the Kremlin onlt took note of German deployment in March-April 1941 what were 23 armies doing in the first and second Strategic Lines in June 1941?

I don't agree with his overall thesis but his evidence is interesting and forces you to challenge the assumption that Stalin was a passive victim of Barbarossa.

Jumbo

 

Actually, Andy, these two men had asked Stalin to start making plans for a pre-entive (spelling?) attack on Germany on summer 1942 or 1943.





Marshals Simeon Timoschenko and Georgi Zhúkov.

And of course Hitler invaded the USSR in a way to take the initiative in that inevitable struggle between two totally opossite ideologies. Beside there was the "Lebensraum", which meant a lot of land for the agriculture, many natural resources which could be used for a long war (perhaps against the unbeaten Great Britain or more probably the USA). Hitler wanted the smash communism and give the German people the vital space they needed. It sounds good for me, as well it sounded good for all Germany and most officers. Unfortunately we became of this enterprise a horrible genocide and defeat.

 

I agree with the notion that war was inevitable. Not only for Hitlers lebensraum, but for the communist ideal of a new world order. Lenin wanted the proletariat of all western nations to rise against their capitalist leaders. Of course this failed to happen, and the opposite occurred in Germany and Italy. But Stalin wanted spread comunism, by force if need be. It wasnt only mistrust between two powerful nations and ideology of fascism versus communism, but the underlying goal of wishing to annhilate each other in order to achieve their grand strategic goals.

 

Very good question. I would say that the answer has a lot to do with the very essence of the Second World War. First of all, you've got to dismiss all the personal causes of the campaign, such as "Hitler was frustrated","Hitler was angry","Hitler was having a bad-hair day," etc. This was a political conflict and not some expression of one man's inner feelings.
And the Lebensraum theory doesn't make much sense: particularly after the fall of France (how much Lebensraum is enough?) This was a battle to destroy Stalin and Russia's Communist regime.
Hitler's rise to power parallels the development of the Russian Revolution, and the answer is somewhere here. The Germans cetainly weren't threatened by the Bolsheviks in 1917, and actually encouraged the revolution, as we know.
The key year is 1924. Many events took place in this year, and it was at this time that the seeds were sown for an eventual conflict between Hitler and Stalin.
I have to get to sleep right now; but, this is a very good topic.
Spater...

 

Knight Templar; agreed about the "bad hair day" or "anger" nonsense. But in terms of lebensraum, Hitler is adament about it being in the east. The west is already settled by Germanics, but the "inferior" slavics must be moved out for room for some more Germans. Hitler in many more words written in Mein Kampf, says this. He never really wanted war with the west. His underlying motive in most of his actions was for lebensraum in the east.

Hitlers rise to power doesnt really parallel the bolsheviks. The bolsheviks revolted because of the disaster of ww1 and losing to Germany. Also, they revolted because of the abuses of the romanovs. Hitler gained power partially as a result of the great depression, and defeat in the war. He played on the weak Weimar regime to hand the Nazis power. After a failed putsch, Hitler resorted to semi-legal methods of ensuring his parties power. The bolsheviks had a revolution and a bloody civil war. After Hitlers party won the majority of offices, he badgered Hindenburg until he granted him the position of Chancellor. Stalin had Trotsky killed to make sure there were no more usurpers. Plus the bolsheviks were already in power by the early twenties, while Hitler acquired the chancellorship in 1933 and full power by act of legislation in 1934. Hitler and Stalin were both mass murdering tyrants, but thats where the similarity ends.

In all technicality, Mussolinis rise to power more closely resembles the bolsheviks in both time period and manner.

 

Are you referring to the May-15 proposal?

If so, the May 15, 1941 proposal wasn't approved nor signed by Stalin; it remained a proposal. Only certain parts of it (Chapter IX) became valid in "Operational Directives" given to the Western Military disctrics as an necessary addendum to the valid "Operational Plan" of September 18, 1940. THIS plan, signed by Timoshenko and Merezkow and approved (after changes had been made during Sept./ Oct. 1940) by Stalin and the Soviet Gvt. on Oct. 14, 1940, was the valid Operational valid on June 22, 1941.

Those Operational Plans asked in case of German agression to stop the enemy at the boarder, and counterattack a.s.a.p. into the enemy territory, to fight the enemy on "his" territory. This was common Soviet doctrine since 1924.

Source: Jurii Gorkow: "22. Juni 1941: Verteidigung oder Angriff? Recherchen in russischen Zentralarchiven" (June 22, 1941: Defense or Attack? Reseach in Russian Central Archives) in: Bianka Pietrow-Enncker (Ed.): "Präventivkrieg? Der Deutsche Angriff auf die Sowjetunion" (Preventive War? The German Attack on the Soviet Union), 2000, pp.190-207

 

I'm afraid, but I didn't find a book by Heinz Magenheimer under that name (even not in German)?

I know M., and I know that he published some books and essays in periodicals on that topic, but I'm not aware of a book (?) under this title.

So, I'm afraid, I can't check it or commenmt on it.

 

In Von Bock´s diary some sources are mentioned:

Danilo,valery: Did the general staff of the red army prepare a preventive strike against germany? Austrian military magazine No!/1993 PP 43

Hoffman Joachim: Stalin´s war of destruction 1941-1945, Munich 1995, Military Science Publishers Munich

If someone finds them it´d great!

Otherwise the German command´s assessment of Red Amys´s potential disagrees:
"The Red army assessed by the German command before operation Barbarossa" in Historical Reports, Vol.I/94,PP102.

If the latter is the same as the view told in books I guess the number of russian divisions was 50 or so lower to start with on 22.6 1941....

 

I would say that invading the Soviet Union was always part of Hitler's plan. It had nothing to do with the outcome of the fighting in the West. In 38-39, Hitler was told by his advisors that the German war machine was not ready for an all out war. Hitler thought he knew how the Western Allies would respond but was unsure how his Eastern Friend would react. He also knew that the Allies were wooing Stalin into their court. Hitler sent out von Ribbentrop to do the same. Two reasons here. 1. In Hitler's mind it would keep the allies from forcing his hand. 2. It would give him time to build up the Wehrmacht and bring him closer to the Soviet borders even though he would have to sacrifice some of the land to do so. I suppose in his eyes, he thought he was going to get them back anyway.

As for a pre-emptive strike by the Soviets. Never have seen anything in writing that states the existence of such a plan. I have read where Stalin's generals have advise him to strengthen the borders even before Hitler moved his armies there. But no confirmation that the Soviets were planning to strike first. They knew that they would have to fight Hitler but were hoping they could appease him until they could be better prepared to DEFEND themselves against him. Never attack. That is what I have found.

 

I think that the operation Barbarossa was inevitable considering the political differences, and Hitler´s thought on "untermenschen".Yet Hitler himself believed that the two front war was dangerous ( 1914 ) and blamed the loss of war in WWI for that decision, and thus the generals believed no attack towards Russia would come at least as long as Britain was there.Maybe Stalin thought so as well.

Pre-emptive strike by Germans is not mentioned anywhere, by the generals or Hitler. During autumn 1940 there were movements of Russian troops close to the border which were noticed but not found alarming.
The Russians knew the German danger, but were sure of winning the war in any case and accordingly set the troops near the border ( the text later on ). Also both sides played war games from day to day and many simulated plans were made. Might have been even German plans to attack USA as well.

This is from Pekka Kantakoski´s book " the red panzers".

During autumn 1939 the strategic situation was changing and new plans by Russian generals had to be made. The main enemy was considered Germany but neither could Japan´s participation be ruled out.
Since autumn 1940 after Meretskov being the chief of staff the main attack was believed to focus in Ukraine.During 1941 war games and map plans were practiced at Frunze´s war academy and military circles.According to Vasilevski (?) a false sense of easy victory was created and the view was that after Germany´s attack the enemy could be destroyed by strong counter attacks.This is the reason why large amounts of supplies were situated neart the border.The optimistic ideas must stem from the information concerning german tank numbers. After knowing their new tanks victory must have felt easy.
( During spring 1941 highly ranked russian panzer troop generals visited Germany, and Guderian was with them. Hitler had said that there would no obstacles, they could be shown all the material. The Russians wouldn´t believe that Pz IV was the best and heaviest tank. Later on Guderian find out why they were so suspicious)

On January 1st 1941 Meretskov was replaced by Zukov. At that time Stalin had mentioned to Meretskov that peace cannot be maintained until 1943,but it could be possible in 1942.

On 5th of May during the celebration of war academy´s new graduates Stalin says:
" This country is going towards war, where the enemy is germany."
During the dinner on that same occasion:
"Now that our army has been rebuilt, and enough modern weapons have been made and we have become powerful, we must move from defence to attack!"

After 1992 several sources from Russia have opened and two attacking plans have been discovered:

The plan of 18th of September 1940 the German forces ready for attack are meant to be destroyed by russian forces attacking from two directions.From South east to eastern Prussia by 15 divisons and from the east 10 divisions.As reserve was three divisions.The second army group would attack south to Warsaw with 79 divisions. The main force would concentrate from Brest-Litovsk through Krakow to Breslau. All groups would have a great number of panzers.

On 15th may Zukov suggestes the pre-emptive strike agaibst Germany which has been mentioned.
Stalin thought that the red army was not ready for an attack although troops were set for attacking formation at the time.The troops were in this formation suggested by Zukov also on 22nd june 1941.

Also there´s something interesting found on the first days of battle.The germans found railroads full of maps of covering Poland and eastern Germany.

 

Nice pics Friedrich--especially of Zhukov. I dont think I have ever seen a color still of him. Too bad that you cant see all of his awards.

 

1) Attacking and conquering Russia was one of the precepts of Hitlers plans for the Third Reich. It was inevitable.
2) Hitler was forced into Barbarossa by events in the West. Germany's failure to force an English surrender in June forced an attempt to invade the British Isle. Operation Sea Lion would require at least 11(#'s are from memory) divisions for its initial phase and possibly 36 in total. More than 2/3's of the Luftwaffe, including almost all top shelf aircraft, would have to be tasked to the invasion also.
It was quite clear that even while Sea Lion was lunacy itself, stripping German territory of soldiers and resources to attempt such an invasion would leave the Reich open for a Russian backstab of epic proportions.
At this time the Soviets have 250,000(?) troops within 100km of the German border, they're constructing airfields, fuel dumps, supply depots and building miles of roads. In the spring of '40(I cant remember the book, Im still looking) the Russians moved 8,000 tanks to the border region with Germany.
The Germans knew of the Russian buildups. It was quite clear they couldnt leave their flanks exposed with an invasion of Britain.
So Hitler, in his infamous wisdom decided that the Germans could defeat the Russians in a summer/fall campaign in 1940 and then invade England in 1941. Thats balls.

 

Talleyrand, 13 divisions (first wave of Sealion) was next to nothing for Germany at that moment. And Germany easily had that many soldiers in Poland as the Soviet Union had on the other side of the border. In fact right in front of me is a copy of a document that concerns BOTH Russia and the Soviet problem.

It is dated FHQu, den 27. August 1940 and while the first part urges the Heer to confine the scope of its plans for "Seelöwe" to realistic possibilities and goes on about batches of steamers and motorboats, the second part orders ten divisions to be moved ASAP to the East plus two Panzerdivisions.

And another document, dated the 6th of September 1940, elaborates on the "Verschleierung" of the German build-up in the East. This is the time when the 10-day warning order for "Seelöwe" was imminent. The Germans are not in the least concerned about a Russian attack, but all the more so that the Russians might identify the real reason behind their own military build-up.

I'm afraid I cannot second the idea that Sealion was given up because of Russia.

 

I would agree with Andreas. Good points. I would say that Hitler was forced to fight the West because of their declaration of war. After France, Great Britain was no serious threat to Germany. Hitler did not really have to invade Britain. He did not want to. The failure to do so did not force him to invade the Soviet Union. That was his plan all the time. The West just messed up his time table.

 

PzJgr; Exactly.

Hitlers driving obsession ever since the early party days was lebensraum in the east; to achieve it, you invade the Soviet Union, the only country who had the power to stop him(and had the land he wanted).