Admired the ambition but not the results. Isn't it usually that way with despots? Can't do good if you are not in a position of power but you have to do bad in order to get to that position of power.
The usual response is "He killed the jews and is a very bad man" Yes, he did. I of course don't support that in any way, but more must be looked at. He did plunge Europe into a war, but he also saved it from communism. A Germany without Hitler would have been weak indeed. The Soviets would have taken Europe in a matter of months had they been free to do so. In fact, one may make the argument that democracy is still alive today because of Hitler... Keep in mind, I dont necessarily subscribe to that... Suffice it to say, Hitler had a BIG impact on the world. For better or worse, try and find someone who hasnt heard of him.
Adolf Hitler is certainly one of the most polemic historical characters ever. That is why he can be exploited for making money (as some stupid "historians" have been arguing theses last months about his sexuality... ). He is a person who can be admired or hated. But what he achieved, the good and the bad. He certainly did a lot of good things in the 1930s, starting for supressing the red menace. He made the streets safe, he gave the Germans what they wanted: a powerful nation, a great one in which they could live quietly in and be proud of it. But unfortunately, he had some disgusting ideas and muvh more disgusting party mates who were pigs and ruined it all. We know what happened next... By the way:
Let us hope no one will ever still your avatar again. Hitler really did surround himself with idiots. Goering and Hess made a hell of a mess... Seriously, though, seeing as how this is a general thread, does anyone know if Hitler has any surviving relatives today? I might be doing my senior research paper on him...
I'm not certain, because it's been a while but I do remember seeing a BBC program ages ago, about Uncle Adolf and seem to recall it being mentioned that he has living relatives in the US. I checked our local phone books and there aren't any living in Sydney (at least under that name) __________________________________ Rule 1, on page 1, of the book of war, is 'Do not march on Moscow'... Rule 2, is 'Do not go fighting with your land armies in China' - Monty, House of Lords speech, 1962
With all due respect, it's sometimes hard for me to read utterly - sorry, I can't spare the word -nonsense like that and keep calm. He saved Europe from Communism? I have a map here of 1933 and one of 1945, uhm, let's see, pretty inflation of the color RED betwenen those two dates. Let me guess, your point is that, WITHOUT Hitler thankfully "forstalling" Stalin and killing off 27 m Russians, Stalin would have surely rolled over up to the Atlantic coast in 1941/42/43(choose what's convenient)? Nice speculation, too bad that you have to proof that. Please compare the maximum territory claims made by Molotov in 1940 to the original outcome in 1945. As for Hitler saving the ass of democracy...I hope you have some EVIDENCE suopporting that. Really? So you're just parroting lunatic nonsense made by others, without supporting it? In fact, one may make the argument that if Germany would have lost WW I unconditionally and totally, being occupied, seperated and reduced to a flintstone country back in 1918, along with executing 90 % of the German conversatives, industrials etc, and shrinking the population by a couple dozen millions (starvation), World would have been a better place now. Note that I dont necessarily subscribe to that. Cheers,
Hitler did not save Europe from anything. German apologists in particular often argue that the roadbuilding and reduction in unemployment etc justified his seizure of power in 1933 and things only went wrong later. That if he had not come to power in 1933 the KPD would have taken over. This is simply untrue. The police state started almost on day one, rule of law and treatment of the mentally and physically disabled, destruction of religios organisations and charities, even Nazifying charity through Winter Relief to the exclusion of all other forms. A country in uniform from the age of 6? I'm Gay, so it wouldn't have been long before I got my pink triangle and probably died in a Concentration Camp (murder and brutality abounded in these institutions at inception) whilst the much vaunted roadbuilders lived in conditions only slightly better and often tried to run away: but as Labour Exchanges in 1936 were ordered to report people who had left their job "for no good reason" were asked to report the young and fit to be sent to a Concentration camp because they were "workshy". This is Hitler's system. He did not really care about Germany or it's people, they were a vehicle for his own manifest destiny. He was twisted and evil with no redeeming features (not even being gay Friedrich - my community certainly doesn't want him!). Jumbo
easy there, fellas... That being said, I would have to agree about the spread of communism thing- just look at before and after maps... Dasreich, I'd be VERY curious to hear how someone would argue that Hitler did anything for democracy... Well said, Jumbo... [ 06 September 2002, 09:50 AM: Message edited by: CrazyD88 ]
I will have to side with Friedrich on this. Hitler helped rebuild a country that was going no where fast. If you take Hitler out of the picture, Germany will continue to struggle while Russia extends its arms further to the west and eventually covering most of Europe. Unfortunately, Hitler took the faith and trust given to him by the German people and used it to create his own personal agenda which ended up destroying Germany a second time.
One of the tenets of Russian Communism as Lenin saw saw it was a world revolution . Now suppose Germany without Hitler had to face the Soviet war machine on its path to European domination-it would have been swept away along with the rest of Europe. Democaracy, at least in Europe, would have one hell of a time surviving communism spreading like that. Although Eastern Europe was under Soviet domination, thats as far as they got. Western Europe was controlled by the Allies at the end of world war 2, who then persued a containment policy against the Soviets. As for democracy totally being wiped out-i have heard pepole make the case for it-but i myself still have some doubts; which is why i said i didnt subscribe too it. Come on guys-you need to calm down. This is a forum, not a bar. I dont mind people disagreeing with me, I welcome it in fact. But hurling insults doesnt accomplish anything. [ 07 September 2002, 10:43 PM: Message edited by: dasreich ]
You have evidence that the USSR was about to install a european domination with her "war machine", do you? Or is this just your personal, unsupported POV? Cheers, [ 08 September 2002, 07:14 PM: Message edited by: AndyW ]
Hi Andy: You missed a key word in Dasreichs post ( SUPPOSE ), he didnt say they were going to take over Europe but if they wanted to, it would have been easier without Hitler. Russia would want to expand their empire just like Germany tried to do. However, without Germany in the way they would have an easy journey to the coast.
Exactly. I never said Russia was 100% going to overrun Europe. But they did have their eye on it, and a Germany without Hitler would not have been an effective roadblock, had the USSR invaded. Besides, Soviet Russia WAS expansionist, as shown by their actions in the baltic states, Eastern Europe after ww2, Afghanistan, and other places. Given the oppurtunity provided by a power vacuum in Central Europe, it is entirely possible Stalin would seek to gain continental dominance, and spread communism. Its not a matter of fact of course, but a weak and divided Europe is quite a tempting target.
Interesting fact: When Germany invaded Russia, all the Infantry and armour were in attack positions, and all the supply dumps in forward positions. What does that tell you?
