Enemy at the Gates

Saw this on UKTV History last night. Very good film. Me & the boy enjoyed it a lot. True story of a Russian Sniper in Stalingrad & the German sent to kill him. Lead Roles - Jude Law as Vasilly Zaitsev (Russian Sniper) , Ed Harris as the German sent to kill him. Some fantastic SFX especially when the Stukas attack the boats bringing the Russian re-inforcements across the Volga. Very reminiscent of C o D 1 :thumb:

 

Aye, i agree Spit, excellent film.. :thumb:

 

i watched it again after the 300 time its a right film :thumb:

 

Likeable enough film (unless you are Russian!) but it is not a true story. The German played by Harris, named Konig, for example, is a fictional character.

 

Yes it was a bit too Hollywood - ised but a good watch none the less.

 

lol, tell me what film Hollywood have made that lies havn't been added to ...

 

but vassli is a real person though isnt he

 

He sure is Beast, one of the Red Army's best snipers. :thumb:
There are no records whatsoever - either Russian or German - of a German sniper named Konig. So I think it's kind of wicked to make up such a character who goes on to execute a child. Enough terrible things happened without making stuff like that up imo.

 

is there any way u can get records of vassli and how many Germans he killed while he was in action and can u also find out wot happered too him after the war i know his sniper is in view at Belin i think

 

Aye Beast google it ! Zaitzev's story is amazing! There's loads out there, sniper facts and figures, what became of him post war, everything you need. If you've got time put some of it together and post it here!
:hellyeah:

 

Thorvald and/or Konig

There is great debate over wether the legendary WWII German sniper that was sent to Stalingrad to dispatch of Vasili Zaitzev was Konig, Thorvald, or even wether he existed at all. In fact in the actual Soviet war records, it originally showed up as a Maj. Erwin Konig, which is in fact a very basic and plain German Name at the time. In Vasili Zaitsev's war memoirs, he later refers to him as Heinz Thorvald, which was yet another popular German name in that time period. Thorvald seems to be the name that is used more now, and its confusing as to which it was, and if they were the same person, or one was a mistake, or wether the German Super Sniper was fabricated by the Soviet press to represent the German army, or German snipers on a "whole", and that the story was just a means of providing morale for the Soviet troops. The two names are on official Soviet war records, but there is no record of either name in the German record books (not to say they couldn't have removed the name to save grace). Any way you look at it, its confusing and debatable. Since both names appear in Soviet propaganda and war records, Konig in early war records and Thorvald in Zaitsevs memoirs and in later war records, I have included them both on the list until there is concrete proof that one or the other, or both, did not exist.
In regards to Vasili Zaitsev, there is no doubt he existed, and was a very accomplished and successful sniper.

Snipers

From snipercentral.com

 

What list ?

 

heres a photo off the legendary vassli zaitsev

 

Nice find mate, to find one of Konig you'll have to go all the way to Hollywood !

 

Vasiliy Zaitsev

Already Russian newspapers had made the name Vasiliy Zaitsev famous.
In but ten days' time he had killed nearly forty Germans, and correspondents
gloatingly,wrote of his amazing ability to destroy his enemies with a single
bullet. It was a skill he had learned while shooting deer in the forests around
Elininski, his home in the Ural Mountain foothills. A shepherd in the summers,
Zaitsev, at the age of fifteen, went off to technical school in Magnitogorsk.
On September 20, 1942, the broad-faced Zaitsev came to Stalingrad with the
284th Division. Now he was a national hero, and as his fame spread across
no-man's-land, the Germans took an inordinate interest in him.
SS Colonel Heinz Thorwald was dispatched to Stalingrad from Berlin for the express
purpose of eliminating top Soviet snipers, especially Vassily Zaitsev, who was
being lionized in Soviet propaganda. The Soviets were tipped off to Thorwald
mission by a prisoner. Like Zaitsev, Thorwald first made a careful study of the
terrain and of his victims before attempting a kill. When two Soviet snipers
were killed by single rifle shots, Zaitsev began counter-stalking Thorwald himself.
The duel lasted for several days. During this time Thorwald shot a
political officer named Danilov who was "covering" the duel for Soviet
propaganda (Danilov accompanied Zaitsev and stupidly gave away their
position). Zaitsev finally got Thorwald by offering another sniper, his
assistant Zulikov, as bait. Zulikov positioned himself and lifted his
helmet over a wall, where Thorwald put a bullet through it.
Kulikov cried out as if hit. Thorwald made the fatal mistake of exposing
himself to confirm the kill, and Zaitsev shot him dead.


Next lines are taken from Antony Beevor's Stalingrad, The fateful siege : 1942 - 1943.

The telescopic sight of his prey's rifle, allegedly Zaitsev's most treasured
trophy, is still exhibited in the Moscow armed forces museum, but this dramatic
story remains essentially unconvincing. It is worth noting that there is absolutely
no mention of it in any reports.*

*Indeed, the whole story of the sniper duel is fiction. There is absolutely no trace in
the German military archives or SS records of SS officer Heinz Thorwald.
Also there is absolutely no report of the duel in the Red Army files which concentrated
on sniper activities (the daily reports of the Political Department of Stalingrad Front to Moscow)
This great story can be classified as Sovjet propaganda.

 

Zaytsev was born in Yeleninskoye and grew up in the Ural Mountains. His surname Zaytsev has the same root as the word "hare" (zayats) in Russian. Before going to Stalingrad, he served in the Russian Navy as a clerk but upon reading about the brutality of the fighting in Stalingrad volunteered for front-line duty. Zaytsev served in the 1047th Rifle Regiment of the 284th Rifle Division of the 62nd Army. He is notable for having participated in the Battle of Stalingrad. There, the Russians set up a snipers' training school in the Lazur chemical works; it was run by Zaytsev. The snipers Zaytsev trained were nicknamed zaichata, meaning "leverets" (baby hares). Anthony Beevor wrote in Stalingrad that this was the start of the "sniper movement" in the 62nd Army. Conferences were arranged to spread the doctrine of "sniperism" and exchange ideas on technique and principles that were not limited to marksmanship skills. It is estimated that the snipers Zaytsev trained killed more than 3000 enemy soldiers.

Zaytsev served until January 1943, when he suffered an injury to his eyes from a landmine. He was attended to by Professor Filatov, who is credited with restoring his sight. He then returned to the front and finished the war on the Dniestr River with the military rank of Captain. After the end of the war, Zaytsev visited Berlin, where he met friends who served with him. They presented him with his sniper rifle, now engraved with the words: "To the Hero of the Soviet Union Zaytsev Vasily, who buried in Stalingrad more than 300 fascists."[1] (The rifle is now on exhibit in the Volgograd State Panoramic Museum's "Stalingrad Battle" exhibit.[5]) After the war, Zaytsev managed a factory in Kiev, and remained in that city until he died at the age of 76.

For the Russians, World War II produced numerous snipers with large numbers of confirmed kills. Hence, some sources claim that Zaytsev's remarkable performance was not unique and that others matched or surpassed his kill record, such as Ivan Mihailovich Sidorenko of the 1122nd Rifle Regiment who is credited with approximately 500 kills by the end of the war.[3][4] Undoubtedly, though, there were numerous Soviet snipers serving during World War II who distinguished themselves with a high number of individual kills, including Fyodor Okhlopkov who had 429 confirmed kills.

Commemoration
On January 31, 2006, Vasily Zaytsev was reburied on Mamayev Kurgan with full military honors. Zaytsev's dying wish was to be buried at the monument to the defenders of Stalingrad. His coffin was carried next to a monument where his famous quote is written: "There is no ground for us beyond [the] Volga."

The telescopic sight from Heinz Thorvald's rifle, allegedly Zaytsev's most treasured trophy, is still exhibited in the Moscow armed forces museum. However, the entire story remains essentially unconfirmed. There is no mention of it in any Soviet military reports, including those to Aleksandr Shcherbakov, even though almost every act of sniperism was reported with relish. The supposed duel is depicted in David L. Robbins' book War of the Rats and fictionalized in the film Enemy at the Gates, although Thorvald character's name was changed to Major König. Whether this duel actually took place is in dispute among historians, however, due to lack of any evidence as to whether there was a German sniper of such name or rank who ever existed during World War II.[citation needed] Zaytsev himself did make mention of the duel in his own biography "Notes of a Sniper", although it was a brief description occupying less than a chapter, in which he commented that he had been up against a very skillful sniper.

 

Aye Azza, good work, this is where I'm coming from. "Stalingrad" by Beevor which you quote should be on everyone's shelf who is interested in this stuff. The internet is great but for real depth this masterwork is the place to look.
:thumb:

 

Sorry Dave, I forgot to add the link. I did it like that rather than just copy the list to save the graphics.

 

am glad u like it i was hoping if u lot dont mind would i be able too be our ww2 forum reasearcher

 

Well, you have a sense of humour, which you'll need, so Yes!
I suggest for your first challenge you research:
"What is wrong with Saving Private Ryan"
:silly: