Democracy - a good system?

Castelot,

Nothing Personal, just my opinion. I found things I liked in all the countries I have visited, especially the people. I just prefer the USA because here we have many freedoms that others do not have and it makes me appreciate what we have here.

Perhaps that is why so many people from all over the world come here.

Opportunity.

That doesn't mean we don't have our problems, we certainly do.

:smok:

 

Thats what we all need to think about as we argue this topic. Many of us have our complaints aganist democracy, yet none can say that a better way exists. But then, a man can dream, no?

 

Exactly.

 

Oh come on. You don't honestly believe that a country will become a communist state after the experiences of the 20th century, do you? No one will let it get that far.
These greater personal freedoms you speak of, Greg Pitts, what are these exactly? The freedom to be spied on whenever and for whatever reason? The freedom to be temporarily locked away while being checked upon? The freedom not to be allowed in a country because you don't eat pork? The freedom to bear arms and have the highest firearm casualty rate in the world? The freedom to be supended from school for bringing a nail clipper or painting your hair blue? The freedom to be stashed away in a kid-surveillance battery because both your parents work? The freedom to be rejected for work because you are black? Great freedom. I'm not saying other countries don't have similar restrictions and freedoms, but this isn't really something to be proud of.

 

I´ll have to agree with Roel on this one; Why do all Americans believe that they have more freedom than any other country in the world ? I know this isn´t true, because I live in a country where I enjoy considerably more freedom than I would in the U.S. I also know that Norway isn´t the only country in the world where the population enjoy more freedom than in the U.S.

And Kklover, Socialism is not a step towards Communism ( A statement like this reminds me uncomfortably about McCarthyism ). Socialism is actually a step away from Communism ( by step away I don´t mean that it is close to Communism, but that Socialism has moved away from the ideas of Communism. Modern Socialism has little in common with Communism ).

 

No, I don't think Canada will ever become a communist state. I was just saying that socialism is a step towards communism. I never said that they were heading that way. Sorry if that's the way it sounded.
It's actually a fact that crime is down in areas with more licensed gun owners. They banned guns in one city and the crime rate shot up really fast. I agree with you Roel, America does have problems, but not to the extent you're saying. Blacks cannot be rejected from a job because of their race. That is illegal. If a business does do this, they'll be sued in a heartbeat by whoever they rejected backed by the ACLU. About the Patriot Act: everyone is making such a big deal about nothing. Is it wrong to be able to invade the privacy of a suspect of terrorism? Not if you're in a war against terror. All the critics are making it out to be something from Orwell's 1984. But it's not. It will probably be repealed in a few years anyways.
If a school has a rule against a certain hair color and someone breaks it, why shouldn't they be suspended or punished? It's just like any other rule. It doesn't matter what the rule actually is. I don't think anyone has been suspended for bringing nailclippers to school. I do know that you're not allowed to bring them into the courts because they may be "dangerous." Whatever that means.
Aren't you considered guilty until proven innocent in Europe? Or has that changed? Because if it hasn't, I'd consider that a big freedom in America: innocent until proven guilty.
I think what Greg Pitts was trying to say is that the gov't is less involved in our personal lives and gives us more freedom then other countries (or that is how it seems).

 

But what about redistribution of wealth, etc? Isn't that communist thinking? What is modern socialism about then? Are they more reformed in their views then old socialism? Please explain because I'm getting confused.

By freedom, do you mean more rights or personal freedom, etc? Please explain.

Thanks

 

By freedom, which is a hard word to define btw, I mean both more rights and personal freedom ( freedom is often based on security ). I enjoy more freedom to express myself, both politically and otherwise. And I enjoy more opportunities as a Norwegian than I would as an American, generally speaking. If you moved to Norway you would also discover that the goverment don´t interfere as much in your private life as in the U.S.

Is the redistribution of wealth communist thinking ? Not necessarily.
The idea of redistribution of wealth is the most important part ( and in a way a goal by itself ) of egalitarian communism, as presented by Marx and Engels. But it has no part in non-egalitarian communism ( Plato, among others ).

Socialism was originally a term used about a number of different ideologies of which the most important were communism, anarchy and social democracy. When I speak of socialism I´m really talking about social democracy. I´ll try to stick to the latter in the future to avoid confusion.

The redistribution of wealth is an important element of the social democracy. But please remember that there are degrees of redistribution. The redistribution would be total in egalitarian communism while it would be kept at a minimum whitin capitalism. The social democracy is egalitarian, but incorporates capitalism, so the redistribution of wealth is present but not total ( This is very simplistic, I know :roll: ).

 

i know this is aliitle ways back but yes there is turmoil all over the world but if u look at many facts other countries get over it a lot easier

its been ten years and we are still all over iraq.

i woul dhave to say i do not believe that bush will be elected again but the next time a repulican is in office things that bush stated and never finished will be brought up again. becuase a democrat will not see them as important to the weel being of the nation, such as what happened with iraq. clinton was smart and saw no futuer threat. (not that i am endorsing clinton)

 

1). I like the Canadian form of Democracy, however here we do not elect, by populace vote a Senate, all the Senators here are appointed. This I would change to the American system of also voting in Senators; with the Senatorial distibution being equal for each province.

2). The other thing I would like to see is like the Isreali system where you vote for the type of party; Conservative, Liberal, Socialist, perhaps a middle of the row party forum. Then with that done elect the leader of the nation who does not have a party line but leads the government along the style of government put in place by the majority vote.

There is another option where there is not just one representative per riding but a council, made up of community leaders to get a better sampling of a constituency. Each council should have no less than three but no more than five per riding.

Also there must be laws put in place where all donations to a political party must be disclosed one month prior to the election voting date, no exceptions!
This is supposed to be the case in Canada but it would seem that the Federal and the Provincial Liberal party of B.C. have not been held accountable to this LAW.

 

When I was in Montreal and Quebec, I was told by people I spoke with that medicine is socialized in Canada. Also, I was told that anyone can land at the airport and then claim Canadian citizenry and receive benefits.

Is this correct? If so, do you have issue with it?

:smok:

 

But this is a rule that limits personal freedom without actual reason for it. Such rules would arouse roars of protest in Europe, like it is going on now in many countries because governments want to ban Muslim haircloth. This is not tolerated here while common in the US.

Of course you're not, if that ever happened then it's because of something we've seen elsewhere, like how the US treats suspected terrorists (aka Muslems).

 

Ha! I wish it was that easy. When I moved to Canada from Germany, we had to pay upwards of $700 per person to immigrate. We had to have a Canadian sponser (my now stepfather) to move also. My mom could not work for a year until the Government finally got off their ass and did all the work to make us landed residents. 5 years later, I'm now a Canadian/German citizen, but I had to take a test to become a Canadian citizen, it isn't something you can just ask for.

But anyways, yes, medicine is socialized, that is why there is a big argument about US citizens ordering medicine from Canada. They can get medicine for about 1/4 of the price of medicine where they live. But medicine is still not free, we pay somewhat higher taxes than the US but we get free health care and so on. In my town (Winnipeg) medicine to help stop smoking is free now, which is great as a pack of cigarettes here is about $13.

 

Please don't throw all Muslims into a bracket of suspected terrorists!

The USA does not hold predudice against Muslims nor any other religious sect.

:bang:

 

The terrorists who commited 9/11 were not realisticly Muslim, as all Islam demotes violence and condemns such acts of violence. These terrorists who fight todays "Holy Wars" worship their own sick version of Islam. I have several Muslem friends who tell me that what those people are doing is against everything the Islam religion is against.

 

Zuchov 2003

You are absolutely correct! You would not believe the support and sympathy we received when I visited Egypt in Oct of 2001.

I highly respect the Muslims and consider it insulting when people throw people into one type or another based on race.

:smok:

 

We all consider it insulting (or we should), but, until something changes, I believe it will be an inevitability that one race will hate another.

 

its not nessacerly the race that hates the race it more that the hate is just so relevant that people can't push themselves away from it.

racials problems have exsited and were startes by diffrent empires of dirrent race fighting, and that hate can not just be pused aside.

 

Roel, I'd say you've been watching far too much BBC news.

Spied on? It was a lack of spying, domestically and abroad, that helped them accomplish 9/11.

Almost everyone whom you say has been "locked away" are non-citizens who were caught spying or fighting for radical Islamic groups. I'm sorry, when you are a non-uniformed combatant you don't get Geneva Convention protection.

Non pork eaters not allowed? Since when? One thing our population hasn't understood that our government is not doing is not profiling the terrorists since it would be too discriminatory!

Actually it's the highest firearm casualty rate in the Industrialized World.

Sorry school kids. No adult responsibilties, no adult rights.

Kid surveillance battery? I'm guessing you mean daycare maybe? This is an unfortunate choice some mothers make, but then again they do have the freedom to make that choice.

Please spare me the American rascism baloney. While some rascism still exists, the U.S. has more racial mixing and harmony than most countries. And at least we don't fear an internal minority group so badly that we cower from radical Islam (oops, I said it) while others do our fighting. I won't mention any specific countries.[/i]

 

The only truly communist systems that have ever existed were primitive, closely-knit tribal societies. Other forms of pseudo-communism can be seen today. Your family functions as a communist society, for example. So does a classroom of students.

Neither Socialism nor Communism has ever existed in modern history. Only an enlightened ruling class can make that happen. Most "Iron Curtain" countries were effectively dictatorships.