Question.......

Wow, whenever I say anything to contradict you, you take it as an emotional attack or something. Sheesh.

By the way, the American 90mm M3 had about 20 more milimeters of penetration than that of the 88mm L/56. And the cartrige sizes are irrelevant. You seem to be under the impression that bigger = better. Not surprising, since you are aparently (another) die-hard Tiger fan.

P.S. The T15 gun wasn't "Just barely" better than the gun mounted on the Tiger IE. It had more than twice the penetration using standard APCBC. It was much closer to the King Tiger's gun.

 

Thats wrong danyel i dont take it Personal, i never do just so you know......

And danyel the tests done by germany with thier guns were done against harder and better quality steel than the American and english gun tests..."And yes that is 100% true"

So actually the gap between the T15 gun and the 88mm L/56 gun aint that big....

KBO

 

According to the jsPenetration Calculator (provided to me by Greg Pitts, God bless him) the T15 has a much greater penetration against the same quality 90o plate.

 

First off all i dont believe that that calculater was made very good then...

Secondly im talking about the usual test against 30 degree plates........allthough that doesnt matter....

And the quality of german steel back then was much higher than its allied counterpart.....

So i suggest you either through out that calculater, (No affence) or you get it updated........Or when looking at german results add another 20mm or so............... Just being realistic

But its not rare that people think the T15 gun was "Much" better than the 88mm L/56 gun, many people think this, but they forget that the Steel the Germans used for thier tests were of much higher quality than American Steel........

KBO

 

First of all I don't believe that you have a clue of what you're talking about. The calculator calculates theoreticle penetration against the same quality armor using the mass of the shell, the velocity at which it travels, and its calibre.

Secondly, what are you talking about?

Germany used Face hardened armor, America didn't. I know this, I never tried to contradict that fact.

So I suggest you get some debate skills. Every claim that you have made in this thread has been unsupported. And unsupported claims amount to nothing as far as I know.

 

If you want sources then ill give you sources... A whole 123 of them

http://www.wwiivehicles.com/html/bibliography/index.php
Just click next if yo want to see more sources....

And btw cool down abit..........quit attacking me, and saying i dont know what im talking about.....

And btw if you trust that calculater so much then let me have it, just tell me where to get it, then i can judge it........

KBO

 

Oh and "Danyel" if i missunderstood some of your posts, its probably because my english sucks.......


Regards, KBO

 

Ah grass hopper, you should have read my reasoning a little bit closer. The twighlight was enough to take the eneny at the first requirement of his conditions. Once the conditions became too dark I would then switch on the Night Optics and fight with that edge.
That was the tank of choice, with the night optics of the day. The Allies had nothing to match it, therefore I wanted to use it.

 

Oh, boy! It was also used on the Western Front. Patton found out the hard way. The Geramns removed their tigers at night and replaced them with the Panthers that were equipped with the night optics. Patton didn't know what hit him.

By the way this topic of night optics during WW II has been thouroughly discussed in earlier threads. I don't care to go over it again; the info is posted for you to ponder.

Cheers!

 

Mutant Poodle
I guess I misunderstood your tactics, then

The Panther with IR equipment was never used on the Western front, though.

 

For the given situation I would choose the King Tiger, because it is perfect in this specific role. It has every firepower you could ever want, and armour to render the enemy harmless for a long time, and the fact that you can't run abolishes the need for mobility.

However, I think this situation is highly unrealistic and would never actually occur. You might be surrounded by enemy tanks, but then you'd be in a group, because otherwise the wouldn't bother; anyways if you're surrounded you are always on the move trying to shoot your way out if you can. You might start the engagement at 2500 meters, but most tanks of WW2 couldn't hope to destroy anything at that range so they would wait longer in ambush until their kill odds were better. Basically, this range limitation has made this topic a one-choice question; the KT is one of the few tanks that has the ability to kill at 2500 meters. And finally, the enemy would simply draw back after losing some ten tanks and let the air force level your position; therefore in any scenario the Germans would lose this one. Unless of course the weather is very bad, in which case you couldn't even SEE anything at 2500 meters!

 

Apparantely 2 Panthers of Panzerdivision Clausewitz(in reality with very little armour)had the infra red (Sperber type). On 21st April 1945 they fought the Americans in the Fallersleben area. The infra red performed very well and the attack was a success.

There are also reports of infra red equipped Panthers with Solution B encountering British Comets in April 1945. I believe this was around Uelzen. Again, it was a complete one sided success for the infra red Panthers.

 

The IR Panthers with Clausewitz is a myth - there are no records of these Panthers being used anywhere, and every service record following the deployment of the units which had trained with the IR equipment points to Eastern-front only.

 

Hello.
The Panzer lehr(II.Abteilung of the Pz-Lehr-Regiment 130) will have received and used some Panther G witf I.R night vision in Hungary.
This information from Ardennes Album memorial, éditions Heimdal.

 

My, my, we have been busy!

KBO - Please note on the information you seem to be debating that the information is not mine, nor is it anyone else's on this BB. Now I am not sure offhand exctly which penetrator formula Danyel is in reference to.

Certainly the 88 L/71 was the most powerful tank gun in WW2 (versus other tanks with non-standard AP ammo). My thoughts are that the Tiger 2 was a waste of reosurces and over all a very poor tank. It was a result of the "bigger makes better" mentality, one I find fundamentally wrong.

My primary source on armor protection and tank design is R. M. Ogorkiewicz. He is a world renowned tank expert whom I am sure you are familiar with.

His formula's are not wrong, and if you have been debating that issue then enough has been said.

:smok:

 

Ok since you are putting a condition on my siuation here's mine. Did I inform yoyu that I am a fighting Field Marshal of the German army? Ooops! Since I understand that there is critical shortages of manpower I chose to lead my men by literally taking up the sword, so to speak. I raced over to the three broken down Panthers, the crews nowehere to be seen and claimed the equipment for my tank. At night my excellent field servicing team, and their mobile repair shop, custom fitted the night optics to my King Tiger. One for me, one for the gunner and the driver. After they finished I gave them each a field commission for their bravery and skill, they were then sent home for a months leave.

Hey its my solution and I know it is possible, with the right people. Dream it, build it, use it.

Ok I feel good now, time to go back and study the Selling Processes in Business Management.

Cheers!

 

Err i wasnt refering to the Penetration table on your site, but from another site.... i was just saying that your site is a very good and informative site.....

Btw it would be great if you could link me to such a penetration formula, i would like to see some more of them....

Regards, KBO

 

Greg, I am using the very calculators you gave to me. The ones you told me were based on the work of R. M. Ogorkiewicz.

 

Mutant Poodle
I'm not sure where all that came from - I certainly never set up any conditions for the scenario.

In either case, it wouldn't be possible to mount the IR equipment of the Panther onto the Tiger II - it wouldn't fit, and wouldn't be usable with the 8,8 cm Kw.K. 43 L/71.

Christian

 

Ok just found myself a calculater and this is the correct results for pen against 30* sloped armor.........But this is not counting in that the germans tested thier guns at higher quality steel, so german results against U.S. steel would be greater !!!......

90mm T15 vs 88mm L/71

88mm L/71 using APCBC: 1000m=168mm / 1500m=153mm / 2000m=139mm / 2500m=127mm...

90mm T15 using APCBC or APBC: 1000m=126mm / 1500m=121mm / 2000m=116mm / 2500m=111mm...

88mm L/71 using Pzgr40 (APCR): 1000m=194mm / 1500m=173mm / 2000m=155mm / 2500m=139mm...

90mm T15 using HVAP: 1000m=216mm / 1500m=189mm / 2000m=165mm / 2500m=144mm...

Result: 88mm L/71 gun wins by far........!!!!!

90mm M3 vs 88mm L/56....

88mm L/56 using APCBC: 1000m=102mm / 1500m=95mm / 2000m=88mm / 2500m=81mm...

90mm M3 using APBC or APCBC: 1000m=102mm / 1500m=94mm / 2000m=86mm / 2500m=80mm...

88mm L/56 using Pzgr40 (APCR): 1000m=139mm / 1500m=124mm / 2000m=110mm / 2500m=98mm...

90mm M3 using HVAP: 1000m=190mm / 1500m=166mm / 2000m=145mm / 2500m=126mm....

Result: 90mm M3 Wins by a Margin, or Does it ??? 8) ........

Actual penetration with german guns or when used against american test armor were more like this for the 88mm L/71: when using APCBC = (1000m=172mm) / (1500m=157mm) / (2000m=143mm) / (2500m=132mm)...
When using APCR = (1000m=204mm) / (1500m=188mm) / (2000m=173mm) / (2500m=159mm)...

88mm L/56 Actual penetration against U.S. Test Armor: When Using APCBC = (1000m=124mm) / (1500m=120mm) / (2000m=100mm) / (2500m=94mm)...
When Using APCR = (1000m=151mm) / ( 1500m=138mm) / (2000m=122mm) / (2500m=109mm)....

So you see when compared properly against same type of target, Then the German Guns penetrate more armor than allied guns...... there is no allied counterpart to the 88mm L/71 Exept the russian 100mm AT gun....... or the 3.7inch British AA gun, but that was never used on a tank in ww2....

Damn it took a long time calculating all of this and after putting it on a text, so Plz enjoy......

Best regards, KBO