Question.......

..is pure estimation. You have absolutely no way to prove just how well German guns did against American testing slabs. This is all speculation and is completely unsupported.

Also, guy, no one said the T15 was supperior to the L/71. You're stuffing words in my mouth yet again. I do not appriciate it, and I also don't appriciate being insulted every single time I disagree with you.

 

Err i didnt say that you said that the T15 gun was superior , so now your putting words into my mouth.........


So cool down abit because im not insulting anyone....

And ive already given you sources....

KBO

 

Removed by moderator

 

Oh and btw Danyel if you want more sources then just ask

KBO

 

Yeah, I want sources you have actualy read. I don't want some pre-fabricated lie.

 

And remember if i make mistakes in my english language its because im not english "OK"

KBO

 

And remember my language limits what i can prenounce........

Well im off gotta sleep if i want to make it to work tommorow.....

KBO

 

That is something I don't believe, sorry. Please post that information or link or book you have read on the night optics so I can learn this.

If I were a business owner, and I own two, and you, or anyone else, were in my engineering team I would have tossed you out, nothing personal as I am only speaking as a professional and business owner. I can't stand the words 'I cant'! In my businesses I am a solution finder, not a problem finder.
Please don't take this personally, it was not intended to be, but it was meant to make a strong statement. Thats all.
So anyways please post this information regarding the specks of the night-fighting equipment so I can add it to my collection.

Cheers!

The night optics were mounted on the top of the tank, not in it. THere were tests of triple IR tanks, driver, gunner and commander, I believe two were tested in battle.
Lastly yes they were used on the Western front, in fact that is a pretty much established point of reference, sorry.

Solutions
1). All I need is a compatible power source.
2). A custom 180* swivel mount.
3). The ranges were still spoken and measured by the experience of the commander and gunner.

http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/ ... hmalt.html

http://members.tripod.com/~dietmagic/panther.html

 

Mutant Poodle
Regarding the Tiger II and infrared equipment:

http://www.feldgrau.net/phpBB2/viewtopi ... 7164#27164

Regarding Panthers with infrared equipment on the Western front - again, it never happened:

http://www.feldgrau.net/phpBB2/viewtopi ... =5512#5512

Mirko is one of the persons who has the most knowledge and best information about German infrared equipment, and his answers are usually very detailed on the matter.

 

I thought Mirko's chief claim to fame(other than being an excellent modeller)is that he is specifically concerned with the eastern front 1945 and few other areas.

Has he tried to definately establish and interview personel from western front units or track down where these myths about the IR came from?

What were the Panthers from Clausewitz? Gs, As or Ds? How many of each? There were some D's still in operation in 1945. Have you got a comparative camouflage scheme and marking colour plate as I am intrested in this unit? Thanks?

 

I don't believe that it would make much sense to interview veterans, as their accounts wouldn't be trustworthy, given the long time which has passed. I am not aware of his specific research methods.

Christian

 

I disagree with that completely. There are many volumes of work coming out now that have relied heavily on recollections, personal diary records, even never seen before private snapshots. I have a number of these such works myself. Publishers such as JJ.Fedorowicz are an excellent example. Old soldiers/tankmen etc are an invaluable source with their personal records etc. It's not prudent to simply rely on 'official' records for everything. 'Official' records can't tell us everything. Just a very great deal. The last few months of the war especially were a period of chaos.

All it takes is for a dedicated researcher to try and trace and locate these old soldiers/tankmen and a veritable treasure chest of information might appear. Remember, generally it's not the soldiers/tankmen who go to the publishers, it's vice vesa. If they are not traced and tracked then things might remain a secret forever. You'll be surprised how much information still comes out after fifty or sixty years or so. New things are coming to light all the time.

If you read the recent book "Hells Gate: The Battle Of The Cherkassy Pocket " you'll be amazed at how much new information came about because the researcher who wrote it spent years interviewing participants of that battle and even obtained personal snapshots. I wasn't aware of 90% of it before. This is where it became clear that the first IS-2s to be used in action were indeed used there and knocked out near the village of Tinovka in early Feb 1944. A Panther commander took photos of them. Photos that weren't seen before.

You never know, with a bit more digging there might well be 100% evidence of infra red Panthers used in the west. The stories have to come from somewhere don't they? All it takes is for somebody to DO that digging!

 

Ok i got my shovel, now lets dig...... :lol: :lol:

Regards, KBO

 

Lyndon
The veteran stories can be used to get an idea of what life with a tank was like, however using any information they give as fact is certainly not reliable. Photographs is a different matter, because these generally doesn't lie, however cautoins should still be taken, since the photographs in veterans albums may not be taken by him, but bought from the regimental photographer, etc. (I have a photoalbum with such a photograph).

There were no Panthers in the west, taht is 100% certain. It doesn't matter how much you dig, facts doesn't change. Where the story came from is a good question. Rumours or veteran statements could be a possibility. That doesn't make it true, though.

 

But what if Lyndon can proove that the photo's actually were taken at that place ????

And how can you know it isnt true........ the germans could have coveret it up for some reason......

Best regards, KBO

 

Thats you source? Welll then this person can then explain how the Brtis and American armies came across these Panter VG tank companies equipped with these devices.

Secondly theses IR units were only being tested on the Tiger II's, I never claimed they were fitted, I used them on MY CHOICE OF TANK AND CHOICE OF EQUIPMENT for the situation presented me. If you think that arguing a fantasy point is logical then good for you, I on the other hand do not; it is a waste of time.

I provided my factual sources, you provided a person's opinion that unfortunately for he or she lacks depth and conviction, sorry.

 

KBO
If Lyndon can prove that a photograph of a Panther with infrared equipment in combat was taken on the western front is genuine, then fine by me, however that wasn't the argument.

The testing of the ifrared equipment was obviously secret, but they didn't 'cover anything up' - how could they, when they had no control of which documents were captured? I know it isn't true, because it didn't happen.

Mutant Poodle
When we look at the various records of Clausewitz alledged combat with Panthers equipped with the FG 1250, there are some discreprencies. For example, I have seen statements that Clausewitz fought in early 1945, however the division wasn't created until 1945-04-04, so that would be impossible.

Fact remains, that there is not a single piece of evidence that there were any IR Panthers on the Western front.

Also, I didn't see any factual sources anywhere...

 

I posted the links for you. Take a look.

Remember this though, most people had absolutely know idea that the first warship sunk by infrared targeting was a Canadian warship. Please see earlier postings. But the fact remains that it did happen.

 

Mutant Poodle
The first link you gave has no information about the combat history of the Panthers with the FG 1250. It also repeats some false information, such as referring to the 'Saukopfblende' - the correct name was 'Topfblende'.
The second link does mention action in the west, but is quite inspecific about units, dates and equipment. It brings out no new information, rather it simply repeatrs old, outdated information.

What I was looking for was credible sources, which irefutable evidence that there were Panthers with the FG 1250 in the west.

 

KBO, A point of order please. You seem to be of the opinion that harder armor means better. This is not necessarily so. Both the Germans and Soviets found this out the hard way using face hardened steel.

A typical hardness in WW2 was 400 brinnel. The USA, and Danyel correct me if my memory fails me, was around 250. Many German tanks were at around 200 by the wars end.

Why is it the Germans went to softer steel if the harder steel was so good? Simply because the harder a metal is, the more prone to cracking. It was found that ACBC is actually more effective against face hardened steel than against certain other softer steels.

And Danyel, not debating I gave you a armor calculator. I just don't remember which one!

:smok: