Operation Barbarossa Day

I never heard of a Soviet plan to invade Germany in 1941, but I have heard of plans to invade Germany in 1942.

Too bad I don't know Russian

 

I think the link is quite enough actually! Pretty much anything that contains the word "Suvorov" is widely regarded with a healthy dose of scepticism. Suvorov has been translated to English, by the way.

It is worth pointing out that Suvorov is not so much a serious historian as an attention-seeking writer looking to sell copies based on headlines. His theories have been debunked by several respected historians, most notably perhaps in David Glantz's "Stumbling Colossus".

 

Have you read him? Heartland? you might find a lot of new intresting things about Soviet Union..
And BTW,could you please give me a link to David Glantz's "Stumbling Colossus"??

 

I have read plenty of excerpts and a a few chapters from "Icebreaker" on the net, not the whole thing. I wouldn't want to sponsor him by buying up a copy!

A few years back I did read his book on the Spetznaz, which also was a lot of hyperbolic nonsense about invincible supermen in many ways.

Suffice to say that he uses some very dishonest methods in supporting his theories. He uses paper strength Soviet units to boost the numbers deployed in supposedly offensive locations, claims the most modern equipment was deployed on the border, etc. In one amusingly dishonest instance he claims the suspension of the fast BT tank series was designed for both tracks and roadwheels, for use on German autobahns when the Red Army invaded. The only snag to this "fact" is the BT-series was designed even before the Nazis were in power or the Germans had built autobahns!

A link on Glantz and his work:
http://www.consimworld.com/newsroom/archives/morenews/book.19981002.gen.html

Amazon has sample pages:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0700608796/qid=1061799954/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_1/002-2156314-9830425?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

 

Are you guys talking about Victor Suvarov(pseudonym) the Author of "Life in The Soviet Army", "The Liberators" and many other books.

 

Yes reddog2k, that's exactly the same guy.

 

I've only read his book "Life In The Soviet Army" which gives people a broad view of how the Soviet Military operates. I found the book to be very informative especially his belief that the USSR would use nuclear weapons first.

 

Actually this forum lacks of a big "SUVOROV"-discussion, which is a rather mandatory part of every WW II forum.

The closes tthing I found here is:

http://www.ww2forums.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=000126#000009

Unfortunately I don't have enough time right now to copy all the stuff I posted years ago when this Suvorov-thing was hot

Cheers,

 

Well, I would say first, that the majority of Soviet tanks (and for that matter the majority of any of their equipment) was obsolete when the Germans invaded. Instead, it was largely a combination or inept use and extremely poor maintenance and logistics that led to massive waste and enormous casualities.
I also found the rather fanciful German art at the top of this thread amusing. Few German soldiers in the opening stages of Barbarossa saw the Luftwaffe at all and those who did only at a distance as they flew to targets somewhere up ahead of the advance. Direct ground support, outside Richtohfen's VIII fliegerKorps was virtually non-existant. And, even that unit was more bound up in operational and "strategic" attacks than supporting ground forces.

 

I would think that Herbert Goldhamer's The Soviet Soldier was a better source on the subject of life in the Soviet Army.

 

Oh. My. God.

You are right of course. I don't see how any forum can lay claim to being World War II related without such a discussion. We must immediately start such a discussion before anyone notices and goes telling the rest of the internet! I can hear the lynch-mobs converging on us already...

 

Well,I read a lot of critical materials about Suvorov-Rezun's books,but ALL were written to refute some FACTS,but not the whole book,yes,he exagerate a bunch of things,but the main Idea of "Icebraker" stayed untouchable.Or perhaps I searched inattentivly

 

First, the Soviet tanks in 1941 WERE obsolete as well as most of the Red Air Force planes. There's no doubt of it. T-70s and T-35 and even the BT series were no match not only for the German tanks, but even more for the German crews and tactics. When the T-34 came out, it automatically made all the German 'modern' tanks obsolete as well.

And well, this is the first time I listen to anyone saying that Georgi K. Zhúkov was not a genious and that he actually saved USSR's ass. That's very interesting... and not believeable.

And no one can prove that Stalin wanted to attack the Germany. Marshals Timoschenko and Zhúkov suggested that a pre-emptive attack on Germany should take place in 1942 or 1943 but Stalin never gave signs of agreeing. We can only suposse.

Excuse me, but those fortifications made since 1703 were not going to work. The defences Leningrad needed were organised and made by Zhúkov in September-October 1941. The transfer of a Panzer group has nothing to do with it.

Why were the Germans stopped? Mostly because its units by the time of Moscow had 50% of its size. Why? Because of the big annihilation battles of the summer. If the Russians wouldn't have held for so much inside the pockets, these casualties wouldn't have taken place and they would have given time and resources to the Germans for an advance on Moscow.

To buy time and weaken the German forces. It worked! And as Andy very brightly pointed out, retreating and forming a new defensive line was useless.

These annihilation battles gave the Germans huge tactical victories, but it deprived them of two things they didn't have much and couldn't afford to lose: time and men. However, these battles were needed to destroy the Red Army. ANd it almost worked.

Well, we are having it now, aren't we?

 

The problem is, if his facts are misinterpreted(best case), distorted and/or entirely made up (worst case), how can the idea stay untouchable?

Granted, it's an interesting mental exercise in the land of what-if. But not anything more than that.

 

Hello, Kai! I was born in Sokal town, which now is in Ukraine and was in Soviet Union in the time of WW2. I'm very interesting of this photo. Do you have another photos, its possible to buy.

 

Heartland, the BT tank you mention, is that what the Soviets made of Christie's design that was rejected by the US? It had removable tracks and was capable of high road speeds. Didn't it also have the torsion bar suspension and have good tracked speed in field maneuvers?

 

Sorry Orest,

those are pics from the net I found. Usually they are not being sold, I´m afraid. Maybe you could try ebay?

 

Friedrichs post is too long, so I picked from it some things I want to reply.
T-70 was manufactured first time in Feb. 1942, so it cannot fight in 1941
T-35 was useles in any case, but it was a "parade" stuff, made only in few (by the USSR, of course) numbers.
But T-26, BT series, well, show me, why that ones "were no match". They had nearly the same armour thickness, armanent not only the same, but even slightly better, I dont know, but they does not seem to me to be so inferior.

Excuse me, but every fortification does work, even the simple foxhole. The second sentece does not make sense for me. Do you have some proof of it?
I try to explain my evidence:
When Zhukov arrived to Leningrad (13.9.1941, not 9.9, this Zhukov writes in his memories, like many other fairy-tale stories), the defence was organized quite well. Truth is, there was not many things to defend against. Germans did not want to assault Leningrad, only to surround it and siege. If Zhukov was so strategic genius, he should to see it. Everybody knows it, but Zhukov? He not only did not belive of (true) reports of inteligence, without any reasonable argument on his side, but even he had left to punish some of those "inteligence guys", for "provocations", as he call it. Instead he ordered some realy stoopid orders, like to join with isolated 8th Army in Oranienbaum sector, which brought to Russian no any victory, but only lots of causualties. Instead of to push Germans out of Mga, the crucial rail station for supply of Leningrad he ordered to prepare for German assault. This very assault, which exists only in his head and the Mga station, this is another "heroic" story. Because of Zhukov did not made any serious attempt to secure back this station, about one milion of Leningrad citizens had to starve to dead.
This is only a little story about "the savior" Zhukov. I should write more, but as an English si not my primary language, and I rarely use it except of reading, it is not easy for me to write in English. And I am sorry of any spelling error...

 

Hello Jean, is it possible we are from the same country? Welcome on board!