I just could not resist. Ok Charley, what is your take on the events in Dover in 1051? I reckon Eustace was put up to it by William...
Um, for those out there to whom my statement made no sense at all... In 1051, Count Eustace of Boulogne visited King Edward the Confessor of England. On the way home, him & his retinue deliberately attacked the townspeople of Dover, who not unnatuarally fought back and ran him & his surviving men out of the town. Eustace fled to King Edward, begging safety. He insisted that Dover was in the wrong, and demanded punishment on the town. This is where it gets complicated. Dover was owned by the Godwins, (Earl Godwin was the father of Harold Godwinson, loser of Hastings) a political family who were more powerful than the King & were alledgedly effectively running the country. Earl Godwin refused to punish Dover. The King tried to make him. The king & his supporters met with the Godwins (as in - their armies assembled outside London). However, Godwin's men could not bring themselves to fight the King, and so the Godwins were exiled. King Edward filled their old positions with Norman cronies. A year or so later, the Godwins return from exile, effectively invade Britain, and King Edward's allies (being fed up with the new Norman lords) failed to rush to his aid, and the Godwins were reinstated. The big question is... Why did Eustace (an ally of Count William of Normandy) attack the people of Dover?
Whole thing sounds really dodgy to me - why did Eustace and his men stop to don their armour a few miles outside Dover? Its not the kind of thing you do on a peaceful visit, unless your either expecting trouble or plan on making some! It wouldn't surprise me at all if Edward was trying to get Godwin out of the way, presumably to avenge his brother and to rid himself of an over mighty subject, and cooked something up with Eustace before hand, after all when Godwin was exiled the incident at Dover was forgoten and the punnishment Edward demanded Godwin dish out to it never took place. I'm not convinced Edward wanted William to succeed him as king though.
Agreed - though I do wonder if William was the mastermind, trying to get the Godwins out the way to ease his possible takeover... Me neither. There is just no indication of that, no matter what the pro-Norman lobby say...
As an aside; do you think that there is any one alive, with the Surname Godwin, or Godwinson, who could legitimately claim direct lineage to the last Anglo Saxon King of England?
Well, he and all his brothers died without kids, as far as I know, as did his sister. Possibly the best we can hope for is a cousin, but we do not know much at all about Earl Godwin's family - aside from his mother being a Dane Actually, his elder brother Swein may have left some illegitimate kids behind (he was known as a bit of a rapist, among other crimes - he even had a fling with an Abbess. He died while on pilgrimage to atone for his sins), but there is no record that I'm aware of. So probably not, or at least, not that we could prove. Start searching your phone books for 'Godwin' (as an aside, I know a guy from Nigeria called Godwin - will he do? )
There were two Godwin men who survived the conquest because they had been hostages in Normandy since 1051 (why they were in Normandy is a fascinating debate in itself) one was was Godwins youngest son, the other was Sweins son (Godwins grandson) I'll try and dig out what happened to them when I get time. Harold also had sons from Edith 'Swan-neck' his first wife/mistress who fled to Ireland before coming back at the head of raiding forces a couple of years after Hastings. Needless to say they failed and disapeared from history What is much more interesting is some of the female side of the family, who fled to Flanders, then to Denmark then to Russia where Harolds dauughter Gytha married Vladimir, the future Grand Prince of Kiev, their grand daughter Ingibiorg married Cnut Lavard of Denmark father of King Valdemat I of Denmark from whom the current queens of both Denmark and Great Britain are descended. Thus, very indirectly, the current queen is descended from Harold![/i]
Any chance that Eustace was on a private enterprise trying to carve out his own domain in England? These were times in which what you could conquer, you could keep, since no King was powerful enough to restrain his own lords. See William the Bastard, who was in fact more powerful than the French king he had feudal ties of loyalty with. Heck, I'm no expert in this field, but I'm definitely a believer in the stupidest answer.
The times where you could carve out a domain in England were long past. By 1051 England had a strong, central govenment with a great deal of power, no English lord could ignore his king in the way they could in say France. No Saxon Earl could ever hope to have the power viz a viz the English king that William had viz a viz the French king. Most of the time I'd agree :lol:
Godwin & the Godwinsons came close (Canute's legacy was to effectively remove the King's power base, meaning that a strong dynastic family like the Godwins could exert considerable political clout), but not that close.
I'd forgotten the hostages! Which is highly embarassing... Now, there is a theory that Eustace was promised Dover by William if he helped to provoke King Edward to get rid of the Godwin family. Off the top of my head, I can't remember if Eustace was actually given Dover after the Conquest or not... I'll check when I get home. Unless Charley has a better memory than me!
Not a better memory but a day off and a copy of the Domesday Book which lists Dover as being held by the Bishop of Bayeux. I do wonder if William was thinking that far ahead in 1051? He was still not totally secure as ruler of Normandy while Edward and certainly his wife, were of an age where him (Edward) having an heir must have seemed more likely than not. Williams conquest was only possible thanks to a set of very favorable set of circumsatnces both in England and in Europe coming together at just the right time for him to make his bid for the crown and I wonder if William was simply an opportunist who saw his chance, took it and then invented the rest of the tale as a post event justification
That is about my view, and I had fun at Uni arguing it against the pro-Norman lobby who insisted that Edward always saw William as his successor, and they had a secret understanding of that since at least the early/mid 1050s. :roll: I would say that by the early 1060s William was starting to look hard at England. Normandy was pretty secure, he was even beginning to start expanding (Maine & Brittany), and the myth of his martial prowess starts here. But yes, bloomin' Norman propaganda is most of our source material. Reminds me a bit of Alfred in that respect. Anyway, I'm just putting up theories for debate. I'll have to start looking out my old notes etc if we start having further discussions on this - I was not counting on anybody having quite the knowledge that you do! Where did you study? (legal note - not a slur on anybody at all, but exposing stupidity or even mild bigotry on my part ) A further note - as this is on 'Anglo-Saxon England', it covers a broad sweep of history, not just the events buiding up to 1066, so please anybody feel free to chuck in a question or start a debate. Hopefully Charley will continue his excellent posts!
Definitly, both are classic examples of History written by the victors I spent the time I should have been studying for my O levels drinking and wenching, mucked them up and regretted it ever since . Just always been really interested in the years between the fall of Rome and the first crusade, also been in Dark Age re-enactment for a good few years.
It's a good period! Which re-enactment group are you in? It's something I'd love to do but have not the time or money, really :cry:
The group I'm in is called Regia Anglorum (www.regia.org), one of two national societies that cover the later part of the period. It's not all that expensive to start out as you can make a lot of the stuff like clothes yourself, even shields and spears only cost about £20 a piece if you buy the materials and assemble them yourself, it only gets pricy when you start getting things like swords mail etc
